The IRA end its armed campaign.

[Nilsen]

WTG IRA!

Good news.

Let there be drinking, dancing and fornication!

[Thrawn]

It's funny to see people pretend that there was one wonderful united Ireland and Irish that has been torn horrible assunder by the evil British, instead of a Island (certainly not an nation) of tribal lords that got thier butts kicked because they spent more time trying to kill each other instead of the English.

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Hangtime
One would hope that the British military presence will end eventually, that the Irish will one day again live in a United Ireland and that the Troubles, such as they now are, will be dealt with by an Irish military, and not a British one.

And yet you've already made you're decision "One would hope.... that Irish will one day again live in a United Ireland".  It's up to the people in Ireland to decide that, not for us to decide for them.  People have so many ideals and blame the past.  Well people can live as much in the past as they like but that really doesn't make decisions does it?  The upshot of it is that both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, via Stormant, are working together to see if there is a future or not.  The problem is that those in Northern Ireland (albeit titled British but are actually born and raised there) do not want that to happen just yet (even if Northern Ireland voted to leave the UK it doesn't mean that they want to be a united Ireland does it?).  So, what's the point in forcing a country to rejoin another country if they don't want it because it'll just cause more infighting.  And if you realise from your ivory towers how devastating the infighting has been then you just have to ask anyone whose lived there or has been on the receiving end of it.  

For Ireland to reunify there must be peace and although ONE terrorist group (one of many) have now publically ended its armed campaign it doesn't mean that everyone wants to live together and shag each others sister.  Why?  Because life there is still not balanced yet, it's not ready and the other terrorist groups will simply resurface until they're satisfied.

You can have idealologies but putting them into practice will be another thing.  Why do you think it's taken so long to get this far?  The peace fire, albeit a short spell of IRA terrorism, started nearly 10 years ago.  It's got a long way to go yet.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Yes thats asmaybe. But you might be forgetting that we have had terrist atrocities in this country for a long time. Al quaeda didn't invent terrorism. What rankles is that those who actively funded and supprted it will never be bought to book. I just don't get it when you cry out in anger at the deaths of American women  kids innocents call it an atrocity and themn claim the IRA were somehow different!

Skydancer, if I was an irish patriot, I'd bomb the hell outta the invader.. I'd strike where I could, as often as I could and I'd take the fight to the enemy's shores the moment I could.

.. just as i would as an American Patriot, faced with the same circumstances.

I do not hold with religious 'terror'.. I do not condone the acts of barbarism conducted by fanatics spewing hate directed at the western world. The tactics they employ are not original, tho; are they?

The same tactics used by Jewish Patriots against the British 50 years ago, ain't they? Dosent make it right.. just show's it's not new.

It's a war.. and it's been said before.. one nations freedom fighters are another's terrorists. Part of the landscape now. Thing to do is isolate the source... be it a nation or a group; and snuff it if we can.

The IRA have laid down their arms. That's a victory for you Brits. Now, move on. Ther's not a hell of a lot for your side to be proud of in that old fight.. suggest you get buzy on the one ahead.

[Replicant]

So you're content with terrorism because it's one persons freedom fighters?  So I don't expect any American's to complain about Korea, Vietnamese, Iraqi's, Afghan's etc.  You reap what you so as someone said earlier.

I'm totally against this by the way, but the way you've phrased it sounds like it's okay.  

It's just that in Ireland many people hang onto the past.  There's people like that on both sides and it's difficult for them to move forward because they're extremists.  That's what some of you sound like to me.  You want things to be right but are hanging onto the past so much it'll never happen.  Britain wants it to move on, it would make things so much easier, but those in Ireland (both sides) haven't quite decided what to do yet.  Perhaps some of you should move there and tell them where they're going wrong?  In the meantime I'll let them make their own decisions.

Incidently, it's isn't a victory for Britain regarding the IRA disarming.  It's a victory for everyone concerned in NI and the ROI because it means things can start to move on.  Don't you want that to happen?

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Replicant
So you're content with terrorism because it's one persons freedom fighters?  So I don't expect any American's to complain about Korea, Vietnamese, Iraqi's, Afghan's etc.  You reap what you so as someone said earlier.

I'm totally against this by the way, but the way you've phrased it sounds like it's okay.  

It's just that in Ireland many people hang onto the past.  There's people like that on both sides and it's difficult for them to move forward because they're extremists.  That's what some of you sound like to me.  You want things to be right but are hanging onto the past so much it'll never happen.  Britain wants it to move on, it would make things so much easier, but those in Ireland (both sides) haven't quite decided what to do yet.  Perhaps some of you should move there and tell them where they're going wrong?  In the meantime I'll let them make their own decisions.

Incidently, it's isn't a victory for Britain regarding the IRA disarming.  It's a victory for everyone concerned in NI and the ROI because it means things can start to move on.  Don't you want that to happen?

Nexx.. you know better than that. You know where I was and what I was doing between Sept11 and Oct22. Please, reread what I posted. and think a minute.

Please.

[Replicant]

Why did you write

Skydancer, if I was an irish patriot, I'd bomb the hell outta the invader.. I'd strike where I could, as often as I could and I'd take the fight to the enemy's shores the moment I could.

.. just as i would as an American Patriot, faced with the same circumstances.

[/b] then?  As it has been pointed out, Ireland was invaded nearly 900 years ago.  If you meant back then you'd do that then fine, but if you meant today, which is how I read it?

All I want is peace there but I want it done in such a way that problems will never arise again.  That's why it has to be done correctly and that's why 'us' Brit's are saying that it has to go through the correct process.  The ROI know this too, they're not stupid and that's why I keep emphasising that it's going to take time.

[cpxxx]

First off Swoop this I find seriously offensive:

Think about this for a sec. Imagine you're living in Northern Ireland and someone suggests that all the Redneck Micks from south of the border should have a say in what country you should be a part of.

I'm not sure which rule is violated by that comment and how it got through. I know you can't edit it now but please withdraw it. One thing it does do is diminish all of you comments and now colours my view of your character. It's a completely unacceptable comment.

But to answer a previous point before you became offensive:

Now I'd especially like to know how 'the people of Ireland' were supposed to have voted for home rule in the 19th century when they didn't have a parliament and the only referendum held that I'm aware of was in 1921 when the population of Northern Ireland voted to stay British. The vote for home rule went on in the British parliament and House of Lords.

The Irish Home Rule party in short. Which in successive British general elections was sent to Westminster to achieve just that.  The whole of the people of Ireland voted in those elections.


Then there was the 1918 British general election:

Election results

This was the last all Ireland election and the results are pretty clearcut.  A majority of Irish people voted for some form of self government. Most wanted a Republic,  some Home Rule. A minority wanted to remain ruled from London. Sinn Fein won most seats and a mandate to split from Britain mainly due to the same ludicrous first past the post electoral system still in use in Britain today.

Does that answer your question?

Then what do I know? I'm a mere 'redneck mick'. But to those of you who tell us 'foreign' Irish to mind our own business and let those nice loyal Irish live in their little six county paradise. I ask you this: What business is it of yours you English, Scottish and Welsh foreigners?

I was always anti IRA but when I read some of the tripe written here. I now see where they might be coming from.

Swoop I await your answer.

[Skydancer]

Just for the record CPXXX  It isn't coming from me. I think Ireland might well be better off unified but that isn't the point here( least it wasn't till the apologists started )

I realy can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff. Its OK to blow up innocent people because its a freedom fight! Are you guys serious. British and Irish Women children and innocent men!!!
Please tell me I'm wrong.


As for doing our bit in the war on terror. I think we are.

We have all the suspects for the recent bomb attempts in London in custody. We have troops fighting alongside your troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those are the same young men the IRA was killing too.

I think we as a nation are doing our bit. What a shame that the people posting here value their freinds so much that they think its OK to murder them if the cause is right! !



Go back and read your words please!

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Toad,

In light of your responses I have to ask, just so as I get it straight, Does this mean you condone the IRA blowing up innocent women and children in order to "free" Ireland from British tyranny?

This thread after all was about terrorism and its supporters. Not whether or not Ireland should be united.

Of course I don't.  If  you can quote any example of my condoning that, I'll happily apologize. I don't think I do so, but feel free to give it a go.

[Skydancer]

Forgive me but you tone seemed to indicate you might support the IRA.

Glad we cleared that one up.

I asked because the thread was about terrorism and support for it, not about the Irish question.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Momus--
The subsequent treaty with all its provisions was approved by the House of Commons of Southern Ireland,  by the Dáil Éireann and by both houses of the British Parliament. So much for your claims of illegitimacy.

[/b]

Let's see... you admit the Irish Republicans were about to collapse but maintain the threat of renewed military operations by the English wasn't coercion? The treaty was just the instrument of surrender.

Had the Dail rejected it, what would have happened? In your opinion, of course.

No, it wasn't a landgrab at all, it was the legitimate choice of the majority of the population of Ulster who had lived in the region for hundreds of years.

[/b]

Ah, back to the old justification: If you can hold the land long enough, with or without using force, you can claim what happened "before" doesn't matter "now".

Well that's the reality of it. How do you feel about Jews taking Arab lands, or Europeans taking native american lands? Or is Ireland a special case? Please tell us why?

[/b]

Israel should return to its UN mandagted borders (1947, IMO)

Euros taking NA lands was wrong. We hold them under the  If you can hold the land long enough, with or without using force, you can claim what happened "before" doesn't matter "now" justification. I personally think the NA have a case for compensation; at present, they're not pursuing it here or in Canada.

Ireland the same; the Irish have a case for unity.

Clear enough?

Insight? What like citing an unattributed article from a partisan website to support your dubious claims?

[/b]

And your support is......? Your opinon?

Just because it comes from what you deem a "partisan website" that doesn't mean it's incorrect.

Historically, you don't argue that the Republicans were militarily beaten... you just don't like the source I use.

The move towards independence and separatism for India's muslims dated to long before the Atlee government though,

[/b]

You miss the point. The India/Pakistan situation derives from what uniquely British origin? The Raj.

I admire the Brits in general, love the country, enjoy the people.

However, as US citizens are blind in some areas of their history, so do some of the UK supporters seem blind in areas.

Look around at the former British Colonies. Look at a list of "trouble spots" in the world. See any similarities? The India/Pakistan problems. Ireland's "Troubles". Africa's problems. No connection right, no common factor?

[Hangtime]

First, since you've taken the step of escalating my personal views to be those of all americans, I'll do the same and assume that yours are those of all British citizens...

I meant that if my nation was invaded, my lands and property forfiet, my family imprisoned, my childern forced to schools I did not condone I'd fight and I'd use whatever means necessary to free my family, restore my lands and redeem my children to the schools of my choice.

AND SO WOULD YOU!.. or your not a 'free' man.

And once you get it through that thick wooden english head of yours that NO nation; not yours, not mine, not theirs has any gawd damn claim to the moral high ground where oppression is concerned... and oppression of the Irish is not a 900 year old incident.. it's a 900 year long ongoing policy as far as certain political groups in Ireland are concerned.

Now, climb outta that programed mind-set of yours and look at it from the other side. If you can't then yer doomed to lose.. because you cannot fight effectively if you cannot come to grips with the other sides motives and tactics.

Now, as a 'disinterested' third party observer, I've watched Toad make excellent, calm and reasoned points all the way up this thread.. and he's run into thick headed, see no reason responses from programed null-data inoperative-to-reason british minds that fall back on BS 'historical' allegory to defend self-serving british propaganda.

Stunning.

Electrifiying, in fact. If the body of citizens in your nation are incapable of seeing the Point of Irish rebellion, then you are incapable of seeing the point of the American rebellion... as such yer no smarter as a nation now than you were 250 years ago... and your talk of the rights of free men is just window dressing for a socialist agenda of 'status-quo'.

Peace!

Our war of revolution is over.. the Irish one is entering a new phase. Again, the enemy; OUR enemy is not Ireland or the IRA. The era of Armed Insurgency has been declared 'over' by our mutual governments and the political faction called the IRA. Now, how we gonna impose that ban on Islamic Militants?

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skydancer
Forgive me but you tone seemed to indicate you might support the IRA.

Glad we cleared that one up.

I asked because the thread was about terrorism and support for it, not about the Irish question.

Well, the thread starts with a discussion of the IRA as terrorists. I think you can see how that might lead to a discussion with regards to the roots of IRA terrorism?

However, you and Swoop do have a point. We have gone a bit far afield and off the topic.

Also, it's pretty well hashed out position-wise. I doubt much new thought will debut.

I'm willing to continue if others are interested but that should be in a different thread I guess.

So, if someone wants to start another thread I'll reply in that one.

Ta.

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Our war of revolution is over.. the Irish one is entering a new phase. Again, the enemy; OUR enemy is not Ireland or the IRA. The era of Armed Insurgency has been declared 'over' by our mutual governments and the political faction called the IRA. Now, how we gonna impose that ban on Islamic Militants?

Yes, and how many times have I said that living in the past isn't going to get them anywhere.  It is for THEM to decide what is going to happen but all I've heard from Toad and you is that the British deserve everything they've got and they've not helped the peace agreement.  No one has replied to this yet.  I'm am sick and tired of this continual bs.  I honestly don't care who controls Ireland, all I want is peace but every argument we've had has been met with opposition thinking that we give a flying **** who rules the roost.  I'm sure if you asked the majority of British people they'd have wanted to pull out of Ireland years ago.  We can see the things that have gone wrong but by arguing about the past isn't the way forward for Ireland.  They have to move on.  If they keep bringing up the past then they'll simply get nowhere because the past, regrets, anger will be everyones minds.  Sectarian hatred is brought up in children from a young age and this is the problem.  They have to come to an agreement but only if both parties want to be together.  Forcing one country to be with another that it doesn't want to be with is not going make everything right; it'll just make things worse.  And ask yourself, do you really want to see that?  Because all I've heard is that Ireland should be together no matter what, but what of the implications of that?  That's why both parties should vote so both sides are happy.  The future is yet undecided, it is there for the making, and with both governments working together it'll eventually get there but only in a democratic but also diplomatic way.  That's the thing that pisses me off, neither are accepting that.  They have to get on, and btw, the IRA are not the only terrorist group; only one of many.

I just can't believe anyone can be so arrogant, ignorant of the entire issue.  They have to earn each others trust and work together, it's not going to happen overnight.  Let THEM DECIDE, or can't you just fathom that?!