Spoke to Pyro re Spits

[Squire]

My wish list for what its worth:

Spitfire Ia (+12 lbs boost) The most common Spit in BoB and a direct foil to the Bf 109E-4.

Spitfire Vb (+12 lbs boost) 1941-43

Spitfire Vc (+16 lbs boost) 1942-late 43

Spitfire F.IXc 1942-late 43

Spitfire L.F. IXc (+18 lbs boost) 1943-late 44 < Far and away the most common IX in service with the RAF/RCAF. The "classic" Mk.IX. Served in ETO, MED, ITALY.

Spitfire L.F. XVIe (+25 lbs boost) late 1944-45 fighter bomber, E wing armament, 3 weapon pylons, clipped wings, bubble canopy. *Optional* as the XIV serves this role.

Spitfire F.XIVe (+21 lbs boost). The definitive late war griffon powered version. Standard wings and canopy.

Seafire L.III (+18 lbs boost) 1944-45 most widely used Seafire.

*I would go with a LF IX rather than an VIII, imho the VIIIs only claim to fame over the LF IX is that it served in Far East, but it was not as prolific as the LF IX was. The LF IX can "stand in" for an VIII just fine, and I feel the LF IX deserves inclusion as the most widely used Merlin 66 Spit in WW2.*

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by SuperDud
Good to hear Kev/Pyro, you've made this spit dweeb very happy:p

No need to thank me I just asked him what his plans were.

Thank ALL the guys who contributed to the couple of Spit threads recently.
The ones where we discussed the various options and settled on what appeared to us to be a representative (i.e. most produced versions) list that covered the whole war.
Apparently Pyro hadn't been happy with the Spit lineup for a long time and had been monitoring our discussions.
I guess we came up a lineup that made sense to him, only thing he isn't sure about is the XVI with 25lbs boost, BUT as he told me it's easier to add than take away. So the 25lbs boost is an option for the future.

Squire - sorry bud you've made some misjudgements there;

The LF XVI is basically an LF IX but with a Packard built Merlin 266, so we are still getting the LF IX really.

The XIV and XVI fulfilled different roles, the LF XVI was a low alt 'fighter/bomber', whereas the F XIV was more a pure high alt fighter. In addition the XVI had the Merlin 266, the XIV a Griffon.

LF VIII - Was the 'replacement' for the IX, it was used by ALL but one squadron in the Far East.

[Karnak]

The reason to add the LF.Mk VIIIc is that it keeps the .50 cals out of 1943 and it leave open the option of boosting the LF.Mk XVI to +25lbs boost without creating that gap from the Merlin 61 F.Mk IX in 1942 to the appearance of the +25lbs XVI and the XIV in mid 1944.

If the XVI is definately not going to get boosted to +25lbs then the VIII is not really needed.

All things being equal, from what you've said Pyro's plans are, I'd add the Mk VIIIc.  It is not massively different than the Mk XVIe other than armament and ordnance options, but given the similarity between the Mk VIII and Mk XIV it should be just a matter of mating the rear fuselage of a Mk XIV model with the wings and nose of the F.Mk IX and it would leave the option to boost the Mk XVI without creating a hole in the coverage.

[Squire]

Clarification, I really meant in regards to the requests for the Spit 16 to have clipped wings, broad chord rudder and bubble top. Also if its +25 lbs it cant be used as a 1943 LF IX. Its a so-so "stand in" for a LF IX at best in that configuration.

Copy on the XIV vs the XVI, I was just speaking in general terms that the XIV is a "late-war-very-fast" Spit, for lack of a better term...

The VIII had its place in history, and Im not arguing that, but the LF IX remains the more widely used varient, since the VIII never served in NW Europe at all.

I will be happy with either list, and like I said before, compromise is going to be inevitable.

EDIT: Just remember we will need a gap filler for 1943-mid 44. A 25 lb boost XVI cannot be used prior to @ June 44, same time the XIV comes into service. Be carefull about asking for too many late varients and forgetting the biggest problem with the current Spit series, in that the 1942 F.IX has to go all the way untill mid-44 with no Merlin 66 Spit. Thats the gap we need to fill the most gents, not late 1944-45.

[Wilbus]

Uhm, acording to my sources the Mark IX and Mark XVI are basicly the same planes, same airframe, same cnages from prior versions and basicly the same engine only that the XVI used Packard built engines and the IX uses Rols Royce. May have to look thorugh them more thourough though.

Also, the info I found for the XVI using 100 octane or 130 octane fuel running at +18 boost (150 octane needed for +25lbs boost) had a climb rate of 4700 feet/min at sea level. This would put it pretty close to the XIV but alot slower at alt. Max speed about 386 if I remember correct.

[Squire]

I think you are getting mixed up with a Spit XII Wilbus re the max speed at alt.

[Karnak]

Squire,

If Pyro wants to keep the simple Mk number identification system that people are used to for RAF fighters then the Mk VIIIc would make sense to cover the +18lbs Merlin 66 1943 to mid-1944 period.  Remember, to you and I who read book after book about this it is clear, but to the average player who doesn't read the forums and has maybe one general reference on WWII aircraft going with basic mark numbers is probably pretty attractive.

Wilbus,

Max speed was 405 for the XVI, but that is still a lot slower than XIV's 448. SL would be 336 for the +18 XVI compared to the 358 for the +18 XIV.

(Is it just me or is repeatedly refering to the XIV and XVI in the same paragraph really annoying?)

[Squire]

Ya the American way was better P-47D-5, P-47D-25, ect ect. Roman numerals can drive you crazy after awhile...

Be happy they aren't considering adding the Spit XVIII hehe.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Squire
Be happy they aren't considering adding the Spit XVIII hehe.

That one at least uses different letters instead of the same letters with one tranposition.

Spitfire F.21 would be so much easier.  No more Roman numerals.  Of course it is pointless from a WWII standpoint.

[Kev367th]

F.21 would have been nice, they made around 120 of them, just crept in at tail end of the war.
But aint no way were going to get them, even a Spit XVIII would have been dodgy getting in.

Only problem I see leaving the Spit XVI at 18lbs boost is its inability to catch late war aircraft. There are still at least 4 that are faster on the deck, including two historical opponents (109/190).
To not give the 25lbs boost because it gives it oustanding performance in one category (climb) I think is a mistake. Most aircraft excel in one way and yet are in the game.
Leaving it at 18lbs loses approx 30+ mph striaght and level, 30+ mph that is needed to even get close to to its historical opponents.

Saying that the Spit I going to 100 grade fuel gives that approx 34+ mph extra (not including WEP I believe), so it should make the next BoB scenario interesting to say the least.

[Guppy35]

So this ends up being the Spit line up (minus the Seafire III as I haven't done a template of one of those yet)

Spit I-1939-40 8 mgs  B of B era
Spit Vb-1941-42-2 20mm, 4 303. (60 rounds ammo per 20mm)
Spit FIX -1942-432 20mm(120 rds per gun) 4 303, full span wings, small tail
Spit LFVIII-1943-45Full span wings, tall tail, more fuel, same armament as FIX
Spit LFXVI-1944-45clipped wings, tall tail 3 hard points, E wing with 2 20mm and 2 .5 mgs
Spit FXIVe-1944-45

Can't wait

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kev367th]

Nice Dan -
Shows despite the 'not another' Spit complaints that there are differences between the diff Mks, shame profile doesn't show stuff like short span ailerons.
Man, does a Spit 14 look evil , reminds me of a shark.

[zorstorer]

Originally posted by Guppy35
So this ends up being the Spit line up (minus the Seafire III as I haven't done a template of one of those yet)

Spit I-1939-40 8 mgs  B of B era
Spit Vb-1941-42-2 20mm, 4 303. (60 rounds ammo per 20mm)
Spit FIX -1942-432 20mm(120 rds per gun) 4 303, full span wings, small tail
Spit LFVIII-1943-45Full span wings, tall tail, more fuel, same armament as FIX
Spit LFXVI-1944-45clipped wings, tall tail 3 hard points, E wing with 2 20mm and 2 .5 mgs
Spit FXIVe-1944-45

Can't wait

Dan/CorkyJr

Lordy the Griffin engine was that much bigger than the Merlin???

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Guppy35
So this ends up being the Spit line up (minus the Seafire III as I haven't done a template of one of those yet)

Spit I-1939-40 8 mgs  B of B era
Spit Vb-1941-42-2 20mm, 4 303. (60 rounds ammo per 20mm)
Spit FIX -1942-432 20mm(120 rds per gun) 4 303, full span wings, small tail
Spit LFVIII-1943-45Full span wings, tall tail, more fuel, same armament as FIX
Spit LFXVI-1944-45clipped wings, tall tail 3 hard points, E wing with 2 20mm and 2 .5 mgs
Spit FXIVe-1944-45

I sure hope we get those.  If so I would feel the Spitfire line was complete enough for AH purposes to not add anymore.  That would be as complete a lineup as any in AH and as complete as we can realistically hope for.

[1K3]

(Cashier's voice working in Mc Donalds)

When Spit LF 16 is served, would you like it with...

1. +18 lbs boost, not perked

or

2. (historically) +25 boost, lightly perked (base price 5 or 8)