Author Topic: Spoke to Pyro re Spits  (Read 6052 times)

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2005, 07:37:53 PM »
Your missing the big point Krusty -

If you limit the XVI to 18lbs boost you are effectively making it a 1943 LF IX.

The WHOLE point of the Spit threads was to come up with a Spit lineup that covered the entire war.

If it was limited to 18lbs Pyro would be just as well modelling this lineup -

1940-Spit I
1941 -Spit Vb
1942 - Spit F IX
1943 - Spit LF IX
1944/5 - Spit XIV (perked)

So what we left with, we lose the high boost Mk V, gain a 1943 Spit LF IX and lose a free 1944 Spit.
Sorry not good enough.
LW fans have their free 1944 rides, its not unreasonable to expect RAF fans to want their free 1944 Spit ride.

RE Mk V - Difference is, Spitfans don't mind the V being toned down, LW fans WANT it toned down. But we expect something in return. Giving/taking and compromises.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 07:45:35 PM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2005, 07:42:02 PM »
Quote
Whats up LWeebles, scared of a free Spit that can actaully compete with your 190s?


Nha bring it on. LW Pilots got the skill unlike the sissyfire pilots :)

"OPS! He's not turning with me, oh dear, what should I do now, oh hell, I'll just keep turning for a while"
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2005, 07:44:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Not to put a damper on the party, but I don't think all the credit with the +12 SpitVb is due to the "spit fans".. Going by the constant agravation on the CT forum and the ban of the spitv in almost all setups with the 109F4, there were a lot of non-spit drivers that have been calling for the toning-down of the spitV for a long long long time. It's not just spit drivers being benevolent, you know :P

LW pilots "made do" with flight models that HTC (I think Pyro, specifically) admitted were off-base, and not accurate. And "made do" with these for years, in fact. A few vocal minorities gripe and moan constantly, but most people find the LW rides competently modeled, and still adequate to get kills in. So it doesn't do to lump LW pilots vs Spit pilots, as it's an unfair comparison as to who's getting what done with what planeset. Keep an open mind and don't discount outside opinions. Just because a 190D is fast doesn't mean it should be perked, because while it's fast it can't turn for chit, and in the time it takes to turn 180 every spit in the game can turn 720 and do it all inside the 190's turning radius (lol). Just because the 190D is fast doesn't mean it can fight any better, nor does it make it a monster. It is chased down by ponies, it is outflown by every USAAF plane except for the P40s, and the only thing it has going is speed (which most newbies in the MA use to run away from fights, I hear). Historically it had speed. Historically the spits did not. So why you want to chase one down is beyond me, when there are better rides to do it in.

A high-end spit does everything well. Who gives a crap if it's not as fast as a 190D? The Dora was an interceptor, not a turn fighter. Speed was its main defense. When you force it to fight it's dogmeat, easily. Which doesn't stop people from using it to run for the hills, but it doesn't in any way mean it should be perked either, just because it's faster than a spitfire.


The answer is simple.  You fly it to it's strengths.  Don't turn fight in a D9.

The Spit was designed as an interceptor too Krusty.  Again, just because it does stuff you don't want it to do it should be perked, and because the LW ride you have doesn't do stuff you think it should do, you think it should be free.

I think it's hilarious that the Spit LFXVIe is all of a sudden a high end late war Spit.  What it was in fact was a Spit LFIXe with an American made Packard Merlin 266 engine.

They were producing LFIXes and LFXVIes on the same production line with the difference in designation being determined by whether it was a Rolls Merlin or Packard Merlin being installed.

The 150 octane +25 boost stuff was tested on the IX and was used with them as well as RAF Mustang IIIs from the summer of 44 on.  This again, before the D9 even entered the war.

Please don't misinterpret the XVI being somehow better then the XIV just cause the numeric designation is a later one.

If that's what's going to happen, then call it a Spitfire LFIXe as they were identical in performance in their low alt, clipped wing, tall tail, 3 hardpoint, E wing way.  The LFIXe was doing the same job at the end of the war as the LFXVIe, which was essentially low alt ground support.

Image is of a late war LFIXe.  Note the bomb racks on the wings.  This one still has a smaller rudder but it's the same bird as an LFXVIe in terms of performance and if they took out the Merlin 66 and replaced it with a Merlin 266, it would be re-designated an LFXVIe.

Dan/CorkyJr
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2005, 07:49:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Your missing the big point Krusty -

If you limit the XVI to 18lbs boost you are effectively making it a 1943 LF IX.

The WHOLE point of the Spit threads was to come up with a Spit lineup that covered the entire war.

If it was limited to 18lbs Pyro would be just as well modelling this lineup -

1940-Spit I
1941 -Spit Vb
1942 - Spit F IX
1943 - Spit LF IX
1944/5 - Spit XIV (perked)

So what we left with, we lose the high boost Mk V, gain a 1943 Spit LF IX and lose a free 1944 Spit.
Sorry not good enough.
LW fans have their free 1944 rides, its not unreasonable to expect RAF fans to want their free 1944 Spit ride.

RE Mk V - Difference is, Spitfans don't mind the V being toned down, LW fans WANT it toned down. But we expect something in return. Giving/taking and compromises.


Kev, even at +18 it's still faster than the spit9 and spit8 (the spit8 being the one we may/may not get, I remember now), and still has better engine performance at +18 than the lower marks. It's still a free (unperked) late war ride, even at +18. It's still the best unperked ride of the lot, so it still fulfills its destiny, so to speak.

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2005, 07:49:43 PM »
Dan - Never thought the designation may be part of the problem.

To clear it up -
Mk IX/XVI - Same aircraft diffenrent motors Merlin 66 vs American built Merlin 66 known as 266.

You would get the same performance out of a Mk IX at 25lbs boost as a Mk XVI at 25lbs boost.

As I said by making the XVI 18lbs boost it is effectively a 1943 Spit IX.

Of course it has better performance at 18;bs, geez the whole idea was to increase performance throughout the war, not to stop at 1943; and by limiting it to 18lbs you are putting it right at 1943.

So basically Spits should be limited to free rides 1943 and earlier but the LW should get free rides all the way up to the closing days of the war?
Are we finally getting a veiled admission that late war Spits were that good they should only be introduced to AH2 if perked?

Put it this way if I did a late 1944 scenerio and put D9's up against all Spit 14's what you think would be the outcome. On the other hand if I make it D9/G10s vs limited Spit 14 and a mix of Spit 16 (25lb) and Spit 9 its more balanced.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 08:01:08 PM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2005, 07:59:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Dan - Never thought the designation may be part of the problem.

To clear it up -
Mk IX/XVI - Same aircraft diffenrent motors Merlin 66 vs American built Merlin 66 known as 266.

You would get the same performance out of a Mk IX at 25lbs boost as a Mk XVI at 25lbs boost.

As I said by making the XVI 18lbs boost it is effectively a 1943 Spit IX.

Of course it has better performance at 18;bs, geez the whole idea was to increase performance throughout the war, not to stop at 1943; and by limiting it to 18lbs you are putting it right at 1943.

So basically Spits should be limited to free rides 1943 and earlier but the LW should get free rides all the way up to the closing days of the war?
Are we finally getting a veiled admission that late war Spits were that good they should only be introduced to AH2 if perked?

Put it this way if I did a late 1944 scenerio and put D9's up against all Spit 14's what you think would be the outcome. On the other hand if I make it D9/G10s vs Spit 14/16 (25lb) its more balanced.


Amazing isn't it? :)

Dan/CorkyJr
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2005, 08:08:33 PM »
Just to clarify, at least from my persepctive.

When asking for an LFXVIe, part of it was that it was being used along with the LFIXe as a ground attack bird late in the war with the three hardpoints, and clipped wings.

To me that made a lot of sense for the MA environment.

You'd have a Spit that rolled a bit better, carried the ord better and was faster, representing the majority of Spit IXs and all the XVIs that were LF versions with the Merlin 66 or Packard Merlin 266.

I never for a moment thought that anyone would think it was a world beater in terms of performance to the point of perking it.

 If you are going fighter sweeping, you'd probably take an LFVIII as it has more internal fuel.

I just saw that the Spit fans, of which I am one, would have something they could fly that might give them a better chance to keep up with the other low alt birds in the TAC war that is the AH MA.

It's amazing to me that somehow it's being seen as some sort of uber Spit.

Also, again my wishing for the LFXVIe was that it opened the door for the skinners do do some of those 2 TAF Spits, while having the standard FIX and a VIII broadened the opportunities for the skinners even more with the SEAC, CBI, MTO and Pacific skins that could be done, along with the early North African one off Spit IXs or high alt birds.

Not claiming to speak for the other Spit fans here but I'd guess their thinking was similar.

Dan/CorkyJr
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2005, 08:08:50 PM »
Lol yup.

All the LW fans want their late war rides perk free, but even a hint of late war good performing Spit and its PERK IT.
Even a Merlin based Spit LOLOLOL.

Theyd throw a fit if a Mk XVIII or F.21 appeared.

It would be totally unacceptable if yet again the Spits were effectively stuck at a pre end of war date. All we would have gained is 1 year of development, up from the 1942 F IX to effectively a 1943 LF IX.
While quite happily giving up what is the best free Spit in the game (current mk V)

I even expect a Mk XVI to be at an ENY of 5, and have no problem with that, but ONLY if its at 25lbs boost.

Having intially been very enthused about the new lineup and then realizing exactly what we are getting, only have 1 comment -

SPITS - RIPPED OFF YET AGAIN.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 08:30:09 PM by Kev367th »
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline 1K3

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3449
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2005, 08:56:21 PM »
IHMO Nothing is wrong with adding a  Spit LF 16 that used the historical 150 octane +25 boost for their merlin 66/266 engines. Spit LF 16 is facing teh same delema as Ki-84 4 years ago.
-----------------------------------------------------
Looks like the fear fo adding Spit LF 16s is  compared to that of Ki-84 when it was introduced in the "boards" 4 years ago. Like Ki-84, Spit LF 16 has nothing tpo offer other than excelent rate of climb (and that's important for interceptor role) and a decent low altitude speed. Spitfire LF 16's performance at altitude is not so stellar at ~ 407 mph

Spitfire LF 16 is...

50+ mhp slower than 109K-4 at alt
40+ mph slower than P-51B at alt
40+ mph slower than Spitfire Mk. XIV at alt
30+ mph slower than P-51D at alt
20+ mph slower than Fw-190D-9 at alt

Against late war planes.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 10:51:51 PM by 1K3 »

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2005, 09:00:35 PM »
I do agree, but I also see the other side.

5,700ft/min climb means it will have an incredible ability to accelerate.  Any La-7 that turned with it would never make it our alive as the Spit just sprinted it down before it ever could hope to get an advantage from it's higher top speed.


Ideally it wouldn't be perked.  After all the P-47N is a monster in it's own right and is free.

And yes, I'd take the Mk VIII over the Mk XVI for most of my flights.



All that said, to me a very small perk price is more or less unnoticable.  I fly enough sorties in other aircraft to make up anything I'd lose fairly quickly.  Newer players would not be so fortunate.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Kev367th

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5290
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2005, 09:12:08 PM »
I agree with both 1K3 and Karnak.

Its still slow enough at top speed to not be the major threat it is percieved to be.

It may become the base defender of choice, but only because it can climb to intercept the bogies. If the bogies make a pass and run, chances are it won't catch them.

OK La7 turns and gets killed, so? Or would he do the usual and just haul ass.

At 25lbs boost it would be an excellent addition to the low alt furball.
At 18lbs boost, I wouldn't even bother, just leave things as they are. Give me a 16lb Spit V over a 18lb boost Spit IX/XVI anyday.

Yes I totally agree its the Ki-84 hysteria all over again.

No need to perk a 25lb boost XVI.
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
Asus M3N-HT mobo
2 x 2Gb Corsair 1066 DDR2 memory

Offline Squire

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7683
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2005, 09:28:15 PM »
Im glad I dont do the MA thing, because all this perk debate stuff is enough to drive you mad, who needs the extra aggravation. :cool:
Warloc
Friday Squad Ops CM Team
1841 Squadron Fleet Air Arm
Aces High since Tour 24

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2005, 10:16:16 PM »
Yup they all hung up on the main...

A 25lbs Spitifre LF.XVI wouldn't be of much use at all in ToD and scenarios...

If all this was just about the main then no new spits would be needed...

Hell skip the spits all together and do something with those Hurricanes...:p

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #88 on: August 03, 2005, 11:26:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
A 25lbs Spitifre LF.XVI wouldn't be of much use at all in ToD and scenarios...

Why not?  As I understand it most, or all, Spit IXs and XVIs in the European Theater were at +25lbs boost for most of the final year of the war.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Meyer

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Spoke to Pyro re Spits
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2005, 12:05:19 AM »
how many horsepower had the Merlin at that 25lbs rating?