Author Topic: Wake up America  (Read 2180 times)

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2005, 04:44:25 AM »
What i learned at school is the USA is a melting pot .

Keep melting about 4-5 generations u all have the same colour.

The american language wich isnt english anymore afterall.
Will get some spanic vocabulair within.

whats the prob.

nothing is permanent only change is.

Offline Seeker

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« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2005, 05:07:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
What i learned at school is the USA is a melting pot .

Keep melting about 4-5 generations u all have the same colour.

The american language wich isnt english anymore afterall.
Will get some spanic vocabulair within.

whats the prob.

nothing is permanent only change is.


I see your point; but that's the same as saying in 3-4 generations all Dutchmen will be the same colour; and that Dutch will get some Surinaamse or Indo vocabulary (en nej; Ik bedoel ikke pinda suppe!); how does this theory hold up in the Bijmeer?

I think there's a growing compromise/backlash between the old reactionary conservatism/racism which dictated that a "typical" westerner was white and the post war push to "multiculturalism"; and that's a growing feeling that most people don't give a dam what _colour_ their neighbour is; as long as he's a local; and in effect; supports the same football team.

So to condense it:

Nieghbours colour = irrelevant

Nieghbours cultural frame of reference = the crucial factor.

We've tried for too long to contain competing cultural groups in single national contailners; which was dumb.

We only have to trace the history or Judaism; Roma and Belgium to see how succesful that idea has been.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2005, 05:45:19 AM »
Blimey. So much fear of change!

Rolex Bug I think you are right. You others... well things are going to change so might as well accept it and get on with it. Not trying to be condescending just thats the way it is.

Sparks you are never going to be happy in the UK anymore by the sounds of so maybe its time for you to become somewhere elses immigrant?

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2005, 05:52:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
Learning any second language isn't a fatal injury - you can survive the experience and maybe even learn a little bit about another culture by having a firsthand conversation.


 


Ok I learned german as a kid, and it helped when I lived there, the only thing I complained about not being in english was, entertainment available that was of US origin. I didnt whine or complain that I cant read signs or menus or crap like that and wanting it to be in my own language

But I will be ****** if I learn 1 single word of spanish to talk to anyone here. You come to a country you learn its language or go back to where you can read signs and forms in your own language.
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Offline Steve

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« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2005, 05:58:49 AM »
Quote
US is a nation of immigrants and different cultures. It is not weaker as a result it is stronger. I do think you have a more segregated society though. Or at least it appears that way from the outside. I realise I could be wrong



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Offline Leslie

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« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2005, 07:40:58 AM »
Playing devil's advocate here as I'm not up to date on the situatiion and have extremely limited and dated experience concerning this topic.  This is a biased opinion somewhat and offered as another point of view.  The speech seemed political to me and even had a generous helping of psychobabble as evidenced by the unanimous lack of reaction or questions by the audience.  Surely someone there would have said, hey wait a minute that ain't right!!!  Either no one understood the speech, or didn' have the balls to raise their hand (which is the case with psychobabble.)  These words are not everyday conversational words and are hard to follow for regular people.

Why use words found in an "academic" environment, if the message was important or not directed to "academics"?  So the academic types would be confounded?  Again the lack of reaction is telltale of the audience not comprehending the message, the same way an entire audience might applaud total nonsense out of fear they might look stupid for asking "What did you say?"  Even if clearly understood, I can understand how an audience would be speechless in awe.   Example below:

'The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved! Not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'"

Translation:


We could all get along better with our fellow men by having a strong leader.  Without western culture being the predominant influence in America, as guided by the builders of the western word, Greece (and Rome,) our nation is now succumbing to a philosophy there is no right from wrong.  (And we must address this or the nation will be destroyed.)

Saying something like that in Colorado is very bellicose, being directed at Mexicans.  Why not just come out and say the Spanish culture is largely immoral and we're getting tired of it?  We blame it for the bad things that go on around here, and in all America as well.

Spanish has been a United States language for awhile.  It's as official as English out West (or was) and can't really be considered an outsider language.  This was the only language high school was taught in back in New Mexico before WW2.  I don't know but exclusive Spanish language teaching in the schools probably held true for Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, California and west Texas (any rural areas with sparce populations...before WW2.)

Not trying to get into any "they were here before us" argument.  Am only saying there were enough Spanish speaking people out west to where you could call Spanish a language inherent to that area.  So it's not a foreign language the way German is, for example (even though German is closer to English in some ways.)

I can understand the touchy situation with immigration by our neighbors to the south (Mexico.)  Mexico may feel it is their territory still and have a right to cross the border to their land.

I remember my Dad saying once that Mexico will eventually get all that territory back, though he didn't mention massive  immigration, he implied it.  He told me this
25 years ago and matter of factly, as if it was as certain as the sunrise.  I'm not sure he was all that concerned about it at the time  because it was not a serious problem then as it is apparently shaping up to be now.  My Dad's experience was HS in the 30s in Albuquerque, NM, after which he went to sea from New Orleans to Argentina at the age of 18.

Far as being exposed to another language, it was required in 4th grade as I remember.  The language was French.  Can't remember any of it but it was fun as it could be for 4th graders.  Our teacher Mrs. Ford kept our attention by some of her storytelling, which would be considered bizarre by today's standards, f.g. the  man who chopped up his wife and sold her for bear meat on the Causeway.  We were held spellbound by the old woman's tales (lots of ghost and haunted house stories.)  The fact she looked like an old crone with a cane and had a limp always set the proper atmosphere.  The kids loved it!!!  They don't make them kind today and we sure didn't fool around with her or her fellow teachers outta fear Mrs. Ford would hear about it.

It was a requirement in high school to take a few language courses (French, Spanish, German or Latin.)  As I see it, the great value of studying a foreigh language is this...it helps us to better understand our own language, and yes, to understand our differences due to culture being so closely linked to language.  Maybe the only good that came from that was I learned more  English grammar studying Spanish than I did in English class.  You be the judge.



My .02 cents.  Everyone living in the US should have basic knowledge of both the English and Spanish languages.   They are  both modern native primary languages of the United States.  I didn't care for the tone of the governor's speech, but he did get his point across.      

Dang if it didn't sound very provocative.  Almost warlike.  


Now I'm quitting while I'm ahead, and still have one.  Besides, it's siesta time.:D   Adios amigos.






Les

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2005, 09:09:57 AM »
I think I will just let skyprancers countrymen kick his butt... He is on the government payroll so he sees multiculturalism as a tit to nurture him...  More government programs and more multiculturalism means he stays employed... the more chaos the better for him.  

There is nothing wrong with expecting everyone in a country to speak and read and understand the same language as part of being a citizen...  It makes a country stronger.   Multiculturalism is a huge waste of resources and a means of keeping minoritiues seperate and unable to compete.

I have nothing against learning a second language or learning anything for that matter but.... when you are allmost forced too.... it better be because you are living in a different country than the one you were born in.

skyprancer sees his country in a different way than his fellow countrymen do... he sees it from the vantagepoint of one who is paid to help the minorities that others see as the problem.... they are not a problem for him... they are his mealticket.   England is not a diverse country... no matter what it has only 3% minorities and they are highly segregated as even skyprancer admits... they aren't allowed out in the country or other areas (the good ones)  It is not that way here...

In America.. everyone has a chance.. we have minorities living in gated communities and living in every neighborhood...  they are excepted and the more they become Americans the more they are accepted... we also have british type minorities that live a criminal life in self made ghettos in self made excile speaking a language that is not of their adopted country.  Gated comunities for them have bars on em.

I want to make english the offiocial language of the country.  I want no documents printed in anything but english.  I want no person not here legally to be able to be employed... employers need to be jailed if they hire illegals.

People are not worthless and stupid... but we are lazy if allowed.. we take the easy way... I belive that under the rules I describe the hard working legal immigrants will continue to be an asset to our country... no other way can work.   giving people easy outs and allowing them to be criminals speaking in tounges is not the answer.

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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2005, 11:10:47 AM »
Alot of good points in this thread so far but most are forgetting one of the basic fundamentals here:

Yes we are a melting pot.  If you put oil and water into that pot they aint gonna mix.  Same goes for cultures that tend to clash.  If there is no common element between the cultures there wont be an American culture.

This multiculturalism/diversity crap will ruin America.  Without a common language we will not survive as a culture.  I'm not saying it is wrong to learn a second language but if I'm gonna learn spanish these people darn well should learn english.

Offline Steve

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« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2005, 02:49:51 PM »
Quote
Spanish has been a United States language for awhile. It's as official as English out West (or was) and can't really be considered an outsider language. .  


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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2005, 02:53:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve
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yup when people are Expected to learn multiple languages just to communicate we might as well be Europe.

EDIT:

Yea think about it if people are EXPECTED to learn spanish out west wouldn't that be discriminatory to the Asians.

Heck Kalifornia alone would have to teach English, Spanish, Jappanes, Korean, Chinese (all major dialects).  I guess it wouldn't be so bad, they can't teach history anymore, it might offends somone who's race was trampled on in the past.  Can't teach science, woman might get offended when they find out they are biologically different.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 02:57:42 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2005, 05:08:29 PM »
We dutch have to learn english and german mostly.

English is very much used and the word sht is very common used here.

I wish i could speak a bit spanish its a sexy language. :)


Now my litle kid watches Dora and learns a bit english with it.
I understand she a latino american learning american kids a bit spanish.

whats wrong with it i like it, she loves it.

Offline Sparks

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« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2005, 02:13:32 AM »
There you go with another cliche link Skydancer - that objection to events is automatically fear of those events.   No not fear - anger, yes; bitternes over the wekaness of our "leaders", yes ; disgust at the open abuse of our countries resources, yes ; hatred of those that come into the country illegally and with criminal intent, yes; sorrow for those that come into the country legally with the intent of starting a new life for themselves and their family and who get marked as the others, yes; greif over the loss of what we had, yes ......... fear .....no.

You shouldn't fear change Skydancer but you should manage it. To let it just "happen" is irresponsible and lazy - a feature I see too often in the young of the UK today.  Change is what brings development and improvement, as Ron Denis said about formula 1 "if you don't change you are going backwards" , but change without management is the course to anarchy.

Quote
You others... well things are going to change so might as well accept it and get on with it. Not trying to be condescending just thats the way it is.
[/b]

Am I fearful then ? No, just mightily pissed off at the lazy, weak willed, politcally correct wasters leading this country into chaos.

You just lay back and accept it then - it's certainly easier that way and I'm sure that those other wonderful cultures you wish to embrace and help to bloom in their own little mini countries all over the UK think that is a good idea too ...... this multicultural medoly will all fit seamlessly togther in national harmony because we all know the Kurds and Turks get on famously, and the Chinese triad families love the russian and lithuanian mafia, oh and the somalis just love all of us.

As for leaving SkyDancer, actually thats exactly what I'm looking at as there appears to be no end to the lunacy and I want my daughter out of there. So the UK will lose another skilled worker and another college entrant, and I am by no means the only one. Take a look at the figures for skilled blue collar and white collar workers leaving or retiring early and moving away.

The UK doesn't need people leaving it actually needs people entering - immigrants - legal immigrants with a desire to integrate, provide and contribute to the country - to become part of the British nation - to think of themselves as British and educate their children in Britain under a British system with British laws and values, to earn British money and not ship it home to foreign families, to compete in the open market like anyone else for jobs and to qualify for benefits in the same way as anyone else, to pay in to the system and not abuse the system, to take on the national language as their own. To be British citizens of whatever colour, race or background.  

In the UK and in the USA (which is what this thread is supposed to be about) the immigration question isn't about race or colour it's about national identity and the notion of "home" . Taking your country with you to another country is not immigration it's invasion - always has been.

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2005, 02:34:34 AM »
Lazs you said

"they aren't allowed out in the country or other areas (the good ones) It is not that way here... "


Wrong I'm afraid. Anyone is allowed to live anywhere. Its probably economics thats stopping people move to countryside areas. Infact thats what stops me. House prices are pretty steep in our greenn and pleasent countryside!

"I want to make english the official language of the country. I want no documents printed in anything but english. I want no person not here legally to be able to be employed... employers need to be jailed if they hire illegals."

Actualy your right! Though I see no problem printing stuff in oither languages to help those newly arrived. Its called translation and live here long enough and you will end up learning English. Unless you are daft or Lazy. Its a question of time. The children of these immigrants will become as British as young British Asians, Children of Carribean immigrants, Irish Immigrants, Hugenots, Normans, Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Romans, etc etc.

I agree Illegal immigration is not realy desirable. It seemed to me the good senators speach displayed a fear of immigration full stop.

He sounds like King Canute trying to stop the waves. Frankly its a bit ridiculous. Christianity is an immigrant religion. Before those pesky monks, Brits were happy worshipping nature and other gods. English is a development of immigrant tongues. An amalgam of Latin, Anglo Saxon, and French plus a smattering of Germanic languages. Want to hear our origional tongue. Listen to a Welsh or Gallic speaker!

Its just a bit daft to fear immigration and loss of identity. This nation was built on and improved by successive generations of immigration over centuries. Take the long view and a few Moslems and others with brown faces doesn't seem so scary.

Now Ok I'm talking about the UK but the priciple is the same wherever. We've had centuries of Immigration and are pretty good at keeping our society going and seem tio have a fairly clear identity. The US as it exists has had less time. Give it longer and it;'ll all turn out OK I'm sure.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2005, 02:56:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
Its just a bit daft to fear immigration and loss of identity. This nation was built on and improved by successive generations of immigration over centuries. Take the long view and a few Moslems and others with brown faces doesn't seem so scary.


I'm sure that Harold II had the same enlightened view.
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2005, 02:59:49 AM »
:lol Probably not but us Saxons and Normans seem to get along OK now! Few teething problems but we're doing OK thanks!:lol :aok