Author Topic: FSO: Operation Husky - Frame 1 Score (Read 1980 times)

ghostdancer · « **on:** August 27, 2005, 10:47:03 AM »

Gentlemen,

I have gone through the logs, created my excel spread sheet for scoring and have the results. However, I still have to go through the logs to make sure no illegal second lives on the part of the Axis.

Also the Allies bomb several of the towns at Axis bases (A11 & A44). There are no points reported for this since the objectives clearly stated that the towns at the bases were not valid targets. No penalty for this either.

So until then this is the preliminary score.

2888 = AXIS
2694 = ALLIES

The point difference is 194 .. basically almost a very minor victory goes to the Axis. The Axis forces hit all of the allied bases and facilities assigned to them however, as you will see they only did moderate to heavy damage to these bases. The allies basically wiped out their targets on Sardinia. However, they did barely any damage to 3 out of 4 bases on Sicily (can you guess the Allied targets for frame 2?).

What made the difference in this frame .. giving the Axis a very slight victory was the massive B24J losses the Allies suffered (48 B24Js shot down). While the axis could not stop the B24Js they mauled them severely.

Specific breakdowns below.

AXIS

AIR KILLS
30 pts - 3 P40Es
140 pts - 14 P38Gs
10 pts - 1 P38J
60 pts - 6 Spitfire IXs
30 pts - 2 Mosquito VIs
1200 pts - 48 B24Js
- 20 pts - 1 JU88

TOTAL = 1450

Ground Targets
400 pts - HQ (Tunisia)
93 pts - A25 (Tunisia)
19 pts - A103 (Tunisia)
69 pts - P109 (Tunisia)
51 pts - P6 (Malta)
208 pts - A47 (Malta)

Total = 840

Defense of bases
3 pts - CITY (Sardinia)
10 pts - A3 (Sardinia)
12 pts - A44 (Sardinia)
50 pts - V12 (Sicily)
186 pts - A11 (Sicily)
191 pts - A4 (Sicily)
146 pts - V5 (Sicily)

Total = 598
[/list]

ALLIES

AIR KILLS
250 pts - 25 109G2s
40 pts - 4 109G6s
100 pts - 10 190A5s
10 pts - 1 C.205
45 pts - 3 110G2
375 pts - 25 JU87s
260 pts - 13 JU88s

TOTAL = 1080

Ground Targets
388 pts - CITY (Sardinia)
254 pts - A3 (Sardinia)
180 pts - A44 (Sardinia)
96 pts - V12 (Sicily)
6 pts - A11 (Sicily)
1 pts - A4 (Sicily)
0 pts - V5 (Sicily)

Total = 925

Defense of bases
110 pts - HQ (Tunisia)
288 pts - A25 (Tunisia)
173 pts - A103 (Tunisia)
22 pts - P109 (Tunisia)
40 pts - P6 (Malta)
56 pts - A47 (Malta)

Total = 689
[/list]

BBQ_Bob · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2005, 12:00:33 PM »

On behalf of Navajo24 and myself I would like to thank all the AXIS squads for the effort that they put forth last night. I saw 100% cooperation from these squads all working together for a common cause. Win, lose or draw I have the utmost respect for these men.

~~I also would like to thank the ALLIED squads for making this one of the best Frames that I have been in. What a fight we had.~~

doobs · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2005, 12:23:35 PM »

are the b24 deaths accounting for discos.

I had all birds in flight about 10 minutes from final.
then poof. We lost a couple of 24 pilots to disco otw back
to base. Myself, Robo and traveler all discoed at 00:34.

navajoboy · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2005, 12:40:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BBQ_Bob
On behalf of Navajo24 and myself I would like to thank all the AXIS squads for the effort that they put forth last night. I saw 100% cooperation from these squads all working together for a common cause. Win, lose or draw I have the utmost respect for these men.

~~I also would like to thank the ALLIED squads for making this one of the best Frames that I have been in. What a fight we had.~~

~~Yes indeed. ~~to all that participated!!! Mark one for the Axis!!! Lets keep it going!!~~~~

ghostdancer · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2005, 01:23:47 PM »

The B24 deaths are ones where Axis pilots are credited with a kill. If you took no damage to your planes and disco you should be fine. If you took damage but the LW plane that had hit you was dead again you should be fine.

I will take a look at the logs .. but any disco is not counted.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2005, 01:40:48 PM »

Just went through the allied discos .. there were 18 (although 2 were gunners). None of them credit the LW with kills.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2005, 03:50:13 PM »

I would like some clarification about the second life of the Ju-87 pilots. If they were shot down or crashed and get a second life does that mean they can re-up in any plane they want. I always assumed that the second life for those types of planes was to allow the squad flying them to re-up a second time in the same plane to attack their assigned target again with hopefully more success than the first attempt.

I see in the logs that the VMF-1 Nightmares upped at A114 in Ju-87's attacked a target and were killed or crashed (and allot of the crashes were very close to the same time) and then they all re-upped at field A44 in Bf-109 G2's at 2335-40 time frame. This is when most of the B-24 kills happend.

I'm not the smartest guy in the world but I can read. When I see that many "tragically crashes" in a log at the same time and then within 5-10 min re-upped in fighters at a field that is coming under attack, it makes me think someone ordered those pilots to auger and then go change planes at a field 170 miles from were they started taking unfair addvantage of their second life.

Yeah I'm throwing the BULL$#@T flag down on this one because that tactic is just plain wrong!!!

I am respectfully requesting that the rule of a second life be reviewed as to what is and is not allowed, and I would further request to see the originial copy of the AXIS orders that were sent out, to see if this tactic was written into the orders to begin with.

Hornet33
III/JG44 Bomber Squadron
Tactical Officer

F4J · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2005, 05:02:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33

I am respectfully requesting that the rule of a second life be reviewed as to what is and is not allowed, and I would further request to see the originial copy of the AXIS orders that were sent out, to see if this tactic was written into the orders to begin with.

Hornet33
III/JG44 Bomber Squadron
Tactical Officer

While we're at it, I'd like to see a second life added for anyone at all for manning the field guns only. It's frustrating to helplessly stand in the tower watching the nme mauling your field.
F4jCH:rolleyes:

BBQ_Bob · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2005, 06:09:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
......Yeah I'm throwing the BULL$#@T flag down on this one because that tactic is just plain wrong!!!....
Hornet33
III/JG44 Bomber Squadron
Tactical Officer

As for the JU 87's these are the rules that I received in my objectives.

JU87 - no min requirement, no max limit (get second lives)
and
JU87s get second lives. NOBODY ON ALLIED SIDE GETS A SECOND LIFE THIS FRAME!

No where does it state that the JU 87 pilots have to reup in the same plane. Using the JU 87's the way we did was perfectly acceptable. And furthermore I take offense to your statement. As far as receiving a copy of our orders I will not be sending any to you.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2005, 06:37:59 PM »

The JU87 and actually any plane that is given a second life is and always has been allowed to up in any plane that is available to that sides planeset.

The one caveat to this is they are not allow to up in planes that would cause these planes to go over their max allowed number in the frame.

This is why the Nightmares VMF-101 came up in 109G2s and not 109G6s.

As for purposefully augering to defend a field. Sorry that did not happen. Nightmares were assigned to hit P109 in a NOE attack unescorted.

It was called operation lamb slaughter. The Axis CiC wanted the JU87s to go in first because he thought that they would be slaughtered and not make it to target. However, he hoped they would suck down the defending fighters to the deck and exhaust their ammo in killing the JU87s. Basically to open the way to a higher JU88 attack that was to hit later .. allied fighters to low to intercept and low on ammo.

From what I can tell the JU87 attacks in southern Tunisia and Malta did just this. However, the JU87 attacks on northern Tunisia actually punched through. We broke into 3 flights and spread ourselves out over a 25 mile front .. south, center, and north. P38s in the south caught that flight and slaughtered it but missed the center and the north flight which got in and hit the Port and then were slaughtered at the port.

Nightmares orders were to reup at A44 once all dead and to defend Sardinia. We did .. and we actually were dead and reupped significantly before the B24 attacks came in.

You actually flanked us .. we deployed a full sector and half farther south than where the B24s initially came in and had to race back to Sardinia to try to stop the attack. A3 was lost in the first wave.

Then a second larger B24 wave came in and that is where action got hot and heavy.

Nightmares were never given orders to auger on command and actually it has been understood in the past that if a CM catches a squad doing that there will be a penalty. I will make it clear for frame 2 by reminding people of it.

If you die you can reup if you have a second life when you want to. If you survive you must land your plane at a base before reupping with your second life.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2005, 07:35:59 PM »

OK so if you are flying a plane with 2 lifes, and get killed, crash whatever. You can reup in whatever you want as long as the second plane does not excede the allowable limits for that type in the frame? I am asking because it is my understanding that you are allowed to up 2 times in the one plane assigned.

As for the JU 87's these are the rules that I received in my objectives.

JU87 - no min requirement, no max limit (get second lives)
and
JU87s get second lives. NOBODY ON ALLIED SIDE GETS A SECOND LIFE THIS FRAME!

No where does it state that the JU 87 pilots have to reup in the same plane.

OK: No where does it state that you CAN change planes either. Thats my whole point. I read this as you get to fly twice in a JU 87. You read it as you fly it once then pick something else for your second life. This creates confusion and needs to clarified. Right now this is a grey area and subject to the opinions of individuals.
My question is what is the rule concerning this? If there isn't one there needs to be one.

If my posts offended anyone you have my apologies, however I pay my money for this game the same as everyone else. I play because I enjoy it and most everyone I have met in this game is honorable. What is saw in the logs made me question that. Now I belive the honorable thing to do is find the answer to this question and make it 100% clear to everyone so this can be resolved. If not I fear that this will raise it's ugly head in the future when/if it happens again.

I'm not trying to be part of the problem, I'm trying to be part of the solution.

BBQ_Bob · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2005, 07:46:39 PM »

I understand your frustration, this was a tough frame and a hard one to swallow with the difference being less then 200 points but your question was answered by Ghostdancer......

....."The JU87 and actually any plane that is given a second life is and always has been allowed to up in any plane that is available to that sides planeset."......

No grey area at all.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2005, 08:08:19 PM »

....."The JU87 and actually any plane that is given a second life is and always has been allowed to up in any plane that is available to that sides planeset."......

No grey area at all. [/B][/QUOTE]

Roger that. I did not know that when I looked at the logs, and hence my slightly negative attitude about this. If I may recomend in the future, when the operation summery comes out prior to an event listing the planes, if one or more planes gets a second life to make it clear that it is not the plane that gets a second life it is the pilot and he or she may choose a different plane from the list according to the CO's orders.

Thank you for hearing me out, and I hope there are no hard feelings.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2005, 08:19:28 PM »

No hard feelings here and very good suggestion on making it clear that the pilot gets the second life.

I am also checking the CM logs reviewing JU87 use.

CM logs record things as:

- Killed
- Crashed
- Ditched
- Bailed
- Captured
- Disco

Then it will assign kill credit or a manuever kill credit. The logs open to the pilots were programmed by us and tend to be a little more flowery .. disco = Mysterically Disappeared .. crashed = Tragically Crashed, etc.

But you pointed out another item I have to remind people of. Those pilots with second lives .. if they live must RTB. No augering on purpose just to speed up the process of getting to use a second life in a new plane.

Wind · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2005, 08:51:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
If I may recomend in the future, when the operation summery comes out prior to an event listing the planes, if one or more planes gets a second life to make it clear that it is not the plane that gets a second life it is the pilot and he or she may choose a different plane from the list according to the CO's orders.

That's a good point. It has always been a confusing issue to me!

W~