RAF 150 octane

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Yes I have Widewing.   The confusion in this issue has not been over operations at high speed.  The fuel worked fine at high manifold pressures.  Problems occur at cruising speeds.

All the best,

Crumpp

I haven't read thru this entire thread, but there appears to be some discussion as to the general use of 100/150 avgas in the ETO. I found this on the same website...



It appears that 100/150 was available to the 8th AF in June of '44.

My regards,

Widewing

[Crumpp]

I haven't read thru this entire thread,

You need to need to read the whole thread Widewing.  You are rehashing old issues.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Is there some sort of point you are trying to make?  A handful of sorties.  Define handful?

[/B]

800 sorties by MkIXs in the whole of 1942, to be exact, something like 10-20% of all Spitfire sorties.  The LW fighters in France, despite fewer of them, flew that many alone on a single day at Dieppe, Fighter command was flying several thousends sorties a week during BoB, to put it into context.

In essense the Spit IX doesn't count until when in your mind?

[/B]

Well at the minimum it hardly made a difference until late 1943, when it finally appeared it numbers. It did not replace the Mk V until spring 1944 for sure. By then it had to face more modern enemy times.

Must have been tough fighting those 190As and 109F/Gs in 1941, 1942, 1943 in MkVs. Not really even playing ground.

Originally posted by Guppy35
As for the XIV.  We're back to a handful of sorties before D-Day then chasing target drones.  Kinda like 109s chasing target drones over Germany?  Last I checked the V-1 threat was a fairly serious one and needed to be dealt with.

[/B]

Yep, the V-1 threat was quite serious, and it forced the RAF to deploy its mere 3 dozen modern Spits to fight them, which meant they had no impact on the air combat well until the automn/Winter of 1944. Even then, 60 planes didnt make a difference.

The logbook I have of a Spit pilot includes his time with both 41 and 91 squadrons from March of 43 until August of 44.  During that time he had 185 Operational hours on Spit XIIs and 142 operational hours on Spit XIVs.  His Spit XIV time was from March to August 44 with 91 Squadron.  So he had a lot more hours on Ops in a shorter time while flying the XIV then he did in the XII and the XII was flying on constant Ops from the time he joined 41 until he joined 91 in February of 44.

[/B]

And ? You fail to see the forest from a tree. How many sorties MkXIVs had flew in total?

Then the message was the saw little action once on the continent.  Why is that?  The LFIXs and XVIs were all flying ground attack?  Why is that?  Only 6 squadrons of XIVs.  Of course there were Tiffies, Mustangs, Jugs, P38s, Tempests, Spit IX/XVIs too.

[/B]

Point was the RAF was flying mostly with obsolate planes - the only modern ones comparable to enemy planes were the XIVs and Tempest - both very few in numbers.

How many 109 squadrons on the western front opposing them ?  Not those chasing 'target drones" over Germany.  How many fighting the 2 TAF and 9th AF fighter bombers supporting the ground operations?  Is it safe to say that the LW could only manage a handful of meaningful sorties?

[/B]

Luftwaffe fighters flew well over 10 000 sorties on the Western front alone in December, if that answers your question. I dont think thats a handful only.

Now I know I' ve been more tired and cranky lately, and I know the 109 won the war, but let's keep this in perspective just a bit ok?

OK. The RAF was very slow introducing its advanced types in combat, and they constantly had to face the up-to-date oppistion in planes that were up-to-date 2 years before.

Hurricanes vs. 109E.
Spit Vs vs 109G and 190A
Spit IXs vs. late 109G, 109K and 190D

I see a pattern.

[Karnak]

Well, after going over everything I've seen here I have to say that I do not think the Spit XIV should be modeled at +21lbs boost and I do not think the Spit XVI should be modeled at +25lbs boost.  The evidence of use is just not solid enough to make me think it was anything other than a minority until very late in the war.  The same is true of the Bf109K-4 at 1.98ata.

The Spitfire F.Mk XIV and Spitfire LF.Mk XVIe should both be modeled at +18lbs boost to give those models the greatest usefulness in AH.  The Bf109K-4 should use 1.8ata for the same reasons.

[Angus]

Tsk Tskstksksss.
35000 doodlebugs made, 9000 made the run while the rest were largely destroyed by bombing or jabo attacks, some thousands were downed by fighters.
Seems that those few and obsolete RAF fighters had a field day then.
BTW, a lot of V-1's were launched over the North sea, at low alt (radar evasion), but most got shot down as well as quite many Heinkels were destroyed as well. Want stats?

[Karnak]

Kurfurst,

Hurricane Mk I vs Bf109E?  Just ignore the 300 Spitfires, a full third of RAF Fighter Command in the BoB, why don't you.  Oh, you did.

I know, let's ignore the fact that the Spitfire Mk V entered service nearly six months earlier than the Bf109F-2 and make the unsupported claim than the Spit V was only in service in time to face Bf109Gs and Fw190As, after all you read about soooooo many Spitfire Mk I and Spitfire Mk II fights against Bf109Fs.

And those pilots from the most active squadrons flying Spitfire Mk IXs in 1943, the reports of German pilots facing the notably improved Spitfire Mk IX?  Let's ignore all that too as it is not really data that we like.  It hurts our feelings.


You are right about the Spit XIV not being introduced very rapidly, almost like there wasn't a pressing need for it.  You mention total sorties by the Germans without noting what types flew them or the nature of the sorties, then you pick at as specific an aircraft as you can in the RAF and represent it as the sum total of RAF efforts, glossing over or outright ignoring data that disagrees with your pet theories.

[LRRP22]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Yes I have Widewing.   The confusion in this issue has not been over operations at high speed.  The fuel worked fine at high manifold pressures.  Problems occur at cruising speeds.



This is not correct.  I should have written it entered operation for a few weeks but was withdrawn from general use.

All the best,

Crumpp

And your evidence for this claim is what, Crumpp? There is none.  You've been shown, repeatedly, that VIII Fighter Command was delivered 20,000 tons of 100/150 grade fuel in July of '44, was still receiving 20,000 tons per month in November, and yet another 18,000 tons in January of '45.  

For some reason, you want to turn the fact that a new anti-plug fouling formulation ('Pep') was tested by the 355th FG in December of '44, into a claim that the standard formulation had been withdrawn from service at some prior date.  Again, the evidence lends zero support to that contention.


.

[Angus]

That's a lot of fuel for some penny packets of Spit IX's and XIV's.
Guess they were using it for cooking

[LRRP22]

Originally posted by Angus
That's a lot of fuel for some penny packets of Spit IX's and XIV's.
Guess they were using it for cooking

Angus,

Actually, that 20,000 tons per month refers to deliveries to the USAAF's VIII Fighter Command, which Crumpp claims only used 100/150 grade for a short period in June of '44.


.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Karnak
Kurfurst,

Hurricane Mk I vs Bf109E?  Just ignore the 300 Spitfires, a full third of RAF Fighter Command in the BoB, why don't you.  Oh, you did.

[/B]

What was the backbone of the RAF fighter command and which was to be most likely to be encountered by the 109E?

Answer the question.

Originally posted by Karnak
I know, let's ignore the fact that the Spitfire Mk V entered service nearly six months earlier than the Bf109F-2

[/B]

Really? Well that would mean the Spitfire V entered service in April 1940, given the first 109F was produced from July 1940, in action from early October 1940.

Of course, everyone except Karnak knows the Spit V first entered service march-april 1941... a full month after the Bf 109F-2 (february).

Take my advice... don`t open your mouth that big, people can see inside your head and realize it`s EMPTY.

and make the unsupported claim than the Spit V was only in service in time to face Bf109Gs and Fw190As, after all you read about soooooo many Spitfire Mk I and Spitfire Mk II fights against Bf109Fs.

[/B]

Nope, SpitVs also faced 109Fs, which washed the floor with them actually in 1941.

And those pilots from the most active squadrons flying Spitfire Mk IXs in 1943, the reports of German pilots facing the notably improved Spitfire Mk IX?  Let's ignore all that too as it is not really data that we like.  It hurts our feelings..

[/B]

Let`s ignore the fact there were only 10 SpitIX squadrons in mid 1943, most of them the old Merlin 61 engined anyway, the same number as in 1942... against 37 Spit V squadrons :



A very much doubt a few dozen SpitIXs would really concern the Germans who had already 100% converted to the 109G ages ago by mid-1943. On the rare occasions they bumped into a SpitIX, they had to fight an equal opponent. Horrible, really.

You are right about the Spit XIV not being introduced very rapidly, almost like there wasn't a pressing need for it.[/B]

Yep. After all, the Americans did the fighting, not the Brits.

  You mention total sorties by the Germans without noting what types flew them or the nature of the sorties,[/B]

Err, I think I said Luftwaffe daylight fighters on the West, Dec 1944.. now what types these could be... Bf 109G/K, FW190A/D maybe?

 then you pick at as specific an aircraft as you can in the RAF and represent it as the sum total of RAF efforts, glossing over or outright ignoring data that disagrees with your pet theories. [/B]

Sorry I was unable to decrypt the meaning of that, maybe you should try pulling out your head out of your butt before attempting to communicate. Remember the light will hurt eyes intitially, and you will yell all over the place for a while.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus
That's a lot of fuel for some penny packets of Spit IX's and XIV's.
Guess they were using it for cooking

How many IXs and XIVs were in the VIIIth USAAF Fighter Command?

My take is 0.

[Karnak]

The Hurricane Mk I obviously, but that does not warrant your complete dismissal of the Spitfire's presence in the battle, particularly given that the Spits were tasked, whenever possible, of tackling the 109s and the Hurris the bombers.  You're phrasing and spin on it would have the Spitfires completely absent from the battle, which is hogwash.


Wotan gave a mid 1941 introduction for the Bf109F.  I wonder why his date is so far off of yours as he is also a Luftwaffe fan.

[Kurfürst]

I didn`t say that, just that the RAF was always slow to convert to it`s most modern times, which regardless being as good as their Teutonic counterparts, and appearing in the same timescale, never spread around so quickly as on the other side.

Back on the BoB thingie, all those debates on SpitIvs109E performance are a bit silly considering the 109E usually met the Hurricane, which it totally outclassed.

[Swoop]

Kurfarce,

face it, no matter how much you argue.....Germany already lost the war.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kurfürst


800 sorties by MkIXs in the whole of 1942, to be exact, something like 10-20% of all Spitfire sorties.  The LW fighters in France, despite fewer of them, flew that many alone on a single day at Dieppe, Fighter command was flying several thousends sorties a week during BoB, to put it into context.


[/B]

Well at the minimum it hardly made a difference until late 1943, when it finally appeared it numbers. It did not replace the Mk V until spring 1944 for sure. By then it had to face more modern enemy times.

Must have been tough fighting those 190As and 109F/Gs in 1941, 1942, 1943 in MkVs. Not really even playing ground.

[/B]

Yep, the V-1 threat was quite serious, and it forced the RAF to deploy its mere 3 dozen modern Spits to fight them, which meant they had no impact on the air combat well until the automn/Winter of 1944. Even then, 60 planes didnt make a difference.

[/B]

And ? You fail to see the forest from a tree. How many sorties MkXIVs had flew in total?

[/B]

Point was the RAF was flying mostly with obsolate planes - the only modern ones comparable to enemy planes were the XIVs and Tempest - both very few in numbers.


[/B]

Luftwaffe fighters flew well over 10 000 sorties on the Western front alone in December, if that answers your question. I dont think thats a handful only.

 

OK. The RAF was very slow introducing its advanced types in combat, and they constantly had to face the up-to-date oppistion in planes that were up-to-date 2 years before.

Hurricanes vs. 109E.
Spit Vs vs 109G and 190A
Spit IXs vs. late 109G, 109K and 190D

I see a pattern. [/B]

When did we establish that the Spit LFIXe/XVIe was obsolete?  Last I checked it was considered by many RAF pilots the best of the Spits for combat.


As for those 10000 sorties in December 44 being a handful.  I guess that's a matter of persepctive as well.

A quick check through the books and it appears that the 8th Air Force alone flew almost 30,000 sorties that month.  9th Air Force flew close to 15000 sorties.  15th Air Force from the south was hitting targets on 21 different days in Germany and Austria with over 16000 sorties, and I haven't included Royal Air Force sorties at all in that count.

So just to defend against the American Air Forces attacking Germany, the average LW pilot was flying into a 6 vs 1 situation.  Throw in the RAF sorties and you are probably talking about a 8-1 disadvantage at least.  No wonder those Spit drivers weren't finding much action.

And how many of those 10K LW sorties were offensive sorties?  How many were attacking those bombers that were hitting Germany from the south and the west almost daily?

So yeah I'd say that those 10K fighter sorties were a handful in comparison to what was being flown against them.


And I still don't see the point of all this?  Jets were on the horizon for the future.  Not much point in over producing prop planes when they were going to be obsolete to the jets.  The end of the war was in sight and the supply of aircraft was exceeding demand as was the supply of pilots for the Allies.  They had dominance in the air from pre-D-Day on.  They must have been doing something right.

And the Spits were rarely fighting the 109Ks and 190D9s.  And consider their numbers as well.  Not staggering by any means, the D9 in particular.  And they were dealing with far larger numbers of 51Ds, 47s etc in the airwar over Germany which they were losing badly.

The Spits were by that time flying ground attack for lack of any air combat to be found.