Author Topic: Will the USA green up its act?  (Read 5636 times)

Offline NUKE

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #225 on: December 18, 2005, 08:41:07 AM »
The market WILL work it out. At a point in time not that far off, fuel production will reach a peak, then will steadily decline......while demand will continue to rise. This will result in much higher fuel prices than we have today, and create a much higher demand for fuel efficient vehicles.

Eventually, if no alternative solution if found, we will probably see governments stepping in and rationing fuel big time. Then, there will be a REAL war for oil as nations become desperate. Those are dangers far more realistic and immediat than global warming.

Fuel reserves will run out, but long before they run out, production will decline. There will be less and less fuel, so less and less greenhouse gases all on it's own. Like magic!

After about 300 years, even if we do nothing to conserve fuel, there will be less fuel being used because less will be available and it will be priced sky high. So the problem will solve itself.

Offline mora

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« Reply #226 on: December 18, 2005, 08:53:36 AM »
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Where's the hybrids on that chart?  Those are common over here.  When are you guys going to get with the program?

If we really want to save the planet, we should ban gasoline engines and four wheel drive in vehicles that serve no real purpose.:D

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #227 on: December 18, 2005, 08:56:14 AM »
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Originally posted by mora
If we really want to save the planet, we should ban gasoline engines and four wheel drive in vehicles that serve no real purpose.:D


If you think that's best for your country, I couldn't care less :rolleyes:

Offline mora

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« Reply #228 on: December 18, 2005, 09:43:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
The market WILL work it out. At a point in time not that far off, fuel production will reach a peak, then will steadily decline......while demand will continue to rise. This will result in much higher fuel prices than we have today, and create a much higher demand for fuel efficient vehicles.

Eventually, if no alternative solution if found, we will probably see governments stepping in and rationing fuel big time. Then, there will be a REAL war for oil as nations become desperate. Those are dangers far more realistic and immediat than global warming.

Fuel reserves will run out, but long before they run out, production will decline. There will be less and less fuel, so less and less greenhouse gases all on it's own. Like magic!

After about 300 years, even if we do nothing to conserve fuel, there will be less fuel being used because less will be available and it will be priced sky high. So the problem will solve itself.

On a more serious note, I do agree 100% with this and that's what I've been saying all the time. What I find funny is that some people are so desperate that they are even trying to dispute this. Saving energy and going to more efficient technology NOW would soften the blow and that's my agenda.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 09:46:57 AM by mora »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #229 on: December 18, 2005, 10:54:55 AM »
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I don't like your post because it falls under one broad heading - "not what I want to hear".

Offline Rotax447

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« Reply #230 on: December 18, 2005, 12:42:09 PM »
I suspect that we have gone so far down the path in depleting our fossil fuel reserves, that cutting back now would be of little help.  Let’s look at an example.  

China has 20% of the worlds population, and 50% of it’s labor force grows food.  The US has 5% of the worlds population, and .9% of it’s labor force grows food.  We produce more food than China; how the heck is that possible?

Energy, and lots of it!  Irrigation grids, crop rotation, genetically engineered crops, fertilizers, pesticides, combines, and transportation and storage infrastructure. Last but not least, we don’t have farmers in this country, we have agricultural engineers.

One sixth of the worlds population is malnourished.  Over the next 25 years, the worlds population is going to grow by another 1.3 billion  The vast majority of those people will be born in poor countries, without enough food.

 How do we feed them by cutting back on energy usage?

Offline mora

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« Reply #231 on: December 18, 2005, 12:56:42 PM »
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Originally posted by Rotax447
How do we feed them by cutting back on energy usage?

A better idea would be taking steps to prevent that the population wouldn't grow as expected. Birth control and abortion should be made available to everyone, and people should be made aware that the population level of the world is unsustainable. If they still want to reproduce it's not my problem.

I guess you just got the answer you were fishing for. *puts on flamesuit*
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 01:01:52 PM by mora »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #232 on: December 18, 2005, 01:09:05 PM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
The market WILL work it out.  
When I said that market forces wouldn't solve the problem, I was referring to the problem of climate change/ecological disaster. Read the preceding sentence! Obviously even a modest increased annual fuel cost of ~$500 is enough to deter people from buying 12mpg gas guzzlers, which is what I've said in this and an earlier thread, although as has already been stated, road vehicles are the tip of fuel usage iceberg.

Rotax - yes, I can see that agriculture is much more efficient in the US than China, a communist country with cheap labour where everything has been kept as labour intensive (read inefficient) as possible.

Even if all countries in the world recognised the global warming problem and agreed upon the steps which should be taken to address it, it would still not be easy.

But we are a long way from even that. As we saw in Montreal, America is reluctant even to participate in discussions, with one delegate even storming out of one of the meetings at the Montreal summit.

What's worse still is that as you can see, ^ despite the mountain of evidence and facts, many people refuse to believe that the US is the biggest greenhouse gas emitter, and many more refuse to believe that it even causes a problem.

The same people probably believe that thermostats were invented in Texas.

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #233 on: December 18, 2005, 01:17:55 PM »
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Originally posted by beet1e
When I said that market forces wouldn't solve the problem, I was referring to the problem of climate change/ecological disaster.
 


I know what you were refering to. I just simplified it for you. The problem that you are worried about will solve itself.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #234 on: December 18, 2005, 01:22:51 PM »
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Originally posted by mora
A better idea would be taking steps to prevent that the population wouldn't grow as expected.


Yeah, but then when we kill civilians you guys get upset with that too.

Can't win no matter what we do.  And the world wonders why "Screw you we'll do what we want" is a common American thought.
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Offline mora

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« Reply #235 on: December 18, 2005, 02:02:38 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yeah, but then when we kill civilians you guys get upset with that too.

I'm not saying that anyone should be killed. Also I've never critisized any US military ops here.

Actually what I've been saying here is just the same as GWB has said. Energy/oil should be saved on voluntary basis and new technologies should be developed, and existing technologies should be utilized more(nuclear). People here seem to be against even those steps. I don't like the Kyoto treaty, but I'm not really against it either. Afterall it's about saving energy/oil, which is good.

The first step should be stopping the waste of oil. The reason I've critisized some parts of the american way of life is because it seems like outright waste to me(looking from engineers POV).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 02:07:33 PM by mora »

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #236 on: December 18, 2005, 04:54:44 PM »
Well beet, if all you have left is putting up a fake quote and showing it was made by me, then you must be getting pretty weak on your stance issues. I coud have sworn I read somewhere here that that was unnaceptable on the BBS.
Think I`ll go fire up old Browny and blow a few of these earth saver hotrods roaming around here off the road. Seems you have nailed yourself on the subject .
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 04:57:38 PM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Rotax447

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« Reply #237 on: December 18, 2005, 05:14:39 PM »
Mora, you have explained the sad, but true, facts of life.  The third world will limit it’s population through birth control, or starvation will limit it for them.  An additional 1.3 billion people are unsustainable at the worlds present fossil fuel burn rate.

If we simply burn more fuel to support them, then Beetle will be living on his boat.  I watched a report on CNN a few days ago.  Scientists claim that if we melt all the land locked ice, sea levels will rise by twenty feet.  I don’t think there is twenty feet of high ground between London and Wales!  Florida, and much for our coastal land is in the same boat.  

We really have a tiger by the tail.  We can’t reduce the burn rate by an significant amount, now, or we trigger global economic recessions, and mass starvation.  We can’t increase the burn rate much more, because we could be facing an environmental catastrophe, and in any case, there is not much more fuel to go around

Offline Rotax447

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« Reply #238 on: December 18, 2005, 06:55:54 PM »
For those new to this thread, here is a brief history of global warming…

The ever irreverent British started global warming some two hundred years ago.  They did this by placing coal burning furnaces in their factories, in and around London.  This was done in response to winter ice, which was forming on the River Themes.  

Around this time, the ever inventive Americans were building New York City.  They realized that if a few factories around London could melt ice on the Themes, then someday, many factories around the word, could melt all of the ice.  Armed with this foresight, the Americans built their city.

New Your has long north south avenues, bisected by numerous east west streets.  Natural canals so to speak.  They built their city up, and up, and up.  Small buildings are several hundred feet high, with taller building rising up to one thousand feet above sea level.  

Contrast this to London, where the streets and avenues are a hodgepodge, running hither and yon around the compass.  You can’t find your way around that city, when the streets are above water.  Next, contrast the height of the buildings.  The highest point in London, and indeed the only point which shall remain above the water, is the bell tower of Big Ben.  

On a side note, BBC World News reported today that they arrested a man in London, caught attaching dock mooring along the bell tower of Big Ben.  He had in his possession, drawings, of a rather large lens.  It took a while to assemble the drawings, as they were cut up into many thousands of pieces.  Sources say he just kept repeating over and over again, “It will never work.”  Police say he will be kept under close observation.

Who says these forums are nothing but flamebait and mudslinging :D

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #239 on: December 18, 2005, 07:22:38 PM »
Ah, I see nothing has changed, with Jack-all flatly denying there's a problem with the world's fossil fuel burn rate and the issues of running out of oil and ecolological disaster.

Jack-all, I don't know why you think envy has anything to do with this. Envy does not enter into it. Throughout this thread, I have been quoting American scientists, Americans who experienced exasperation at not being able to convince their president or other politician about the need for oil conservation, the American "Oak Ridge National Laboratory" in Tennessee which confirmed America's status as leading greenhouse gas emitter - something you and Mash deny, and now I'm about to quote from an interview with Paul Roberts, talking about his book that I just bought, "The End of Oil". Roberts is an American journalist and graduate of the University of Washington, living in Leavenworth, WA.
Quote
Roberts says that Americans are “energy illiterate” -- we only think about the nation’s energy policy when oil prices hit us hard in the pocket. If the high price of oil keeps up, it may be just be the rude awakening needed for us to pressure politicians and in turn, the energy industry, to undertake massive investment in the alternatives to oil. If we don’t, the consequences will be disastrous: economic recession, environmental devastation, and further upheaval in the Middle East.
Energy illiterate? Before running this thread, I would not have known what that meant. Now I understand perfectly.

Roberts speaks of the "house sized" Ford Excursion that he test drove. I think he was talking about the verion with the 6.8 litre V10 engine, as he got 4.6mpg when he test drove it. 4.6 miles per gallon? LOL - that's worse than American cars built in the 1950s! I've read the first ~45 pages - the prologue and the first chapter. Quite an interesting read so far.

So Jack - I've been meaning to ask you. What do you think of this book? Can you provide me with a critique? I know you haven't read it, and therefore know nothing about it, but when has that ever stopped you from holding an opinion about anything? :lol