Author Topic: could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)  (Read 5949 times)

Offline Russian

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2005, 10:56:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33
Basic freedom's. The right to free speech, the right to practice whatever religion I choose. The right to question the political leaders of my country. The right to choose where and how I live. The right to pretty much do whatever I want to do as long as it does not take away the rights of other people. Most importantly the right to defend my rights.

I never said I was going to impose my belives on others, however there are many governments out there, the USSR being one of them when it was around, that would and do impose "their" belives on others. During the time of the USSR, if I were to go on National TV in the USSR and say that I thought Stalin was a raging lunitic and needed to be kicked out of office, I would have been shot, and my family sent to the gulag if they were lucky. I would not have had the right to speak out against the government.

Any political system that would take away my right to all of the above is a threat to my WAY of life. Never said it was a threat to my physical self. I would however fight to protect my rights, and if that means putting myself in physical danger to do it, so be it.

Why are you stuck in this mindset that Russia = Stalin? All those rights which you mentioned, Russian people already have.  


“the USSR being one of them when it was around, that would and do impose "their" belives on others.”
So when USA, since its early beginning, imposed others, that is OK? But when other nations do it, it is bad? You still haven’t answered - why US politicians think that it is acceptable to impose on others (and feel proud of doing so) without asking local population?

Offline Russian

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« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2005, 10:58:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33
The thing is I have traveled to some of the former soviet states and have seen first hand what goes on there. The people I got to meet were great. The Governments sucked. That was my observations while I traveled there in 2001.


So are you saying that Democratic goverment 'sucks'?

Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2005, 07:06:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Russian
Why are you stuck in this mindset that Russia = Stalin? All those rights which you mentioned, Russian people already have.
 

Never said Russia = Stalin. The rights I mentioned the Russian people have now but they did not have them under the USSR which I belive was the point of this thread.


Quote
Originally posted by Russian
"the USSR being one of them when it was around, that would and do impose "their" belives on others.”
So when USA, since its early beginning, imposed others, that is OK? But when other nations do it, it is bad?


Name me 1 country that the U.S. has taken over by force, and then occupied, and then made a part of our country. Answer 0. You can't say the same thing about the USSR can you? I don't see the U.S. imposing our belives on anyone.


Quote
Originally posted by Russian
You still haven’t answered - why US politicians think that it is acceptable to impose on others (and feel proud of doing so) without asking local population?


You never asked. Even if you did I can't speak for what politicians in this country think. I can only speak about what I think.





All in all nice troll Russian, but I'm going to spit this hook back in the water.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 07:10:11 AM by Hornet33 »
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Offline Dowding

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2005, 07:12:32 AM »
I've just come back from 5 days in Berlin. I think most people there are happy the USSR decided to leave them alone.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2005, 07:52:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33
Basic freedom's. The right to free speech, the right to practice whatever religion I choose. The right to question the political leaders of my country. The right to choose where and how I live. The right to pretty much do whatever I want to do as long as it does not take away the rights of other people. Most importantly the right to defend my rights.


This rights are a nice, but unnessesary addition to the rights to live, to feed, to have accomodation, education, job and rest. All this rights were 100% guaranteed in USSR, and it's a fact.

Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33
I never said I was going to impose my belives on others, however there are many governments out there, the USSR being one of them when it was around, that would and do impose "their" belives on others. During the time of the USSR, if I were to go on National TV in the USSR and say that I thought Stalin was a raging lunitic and needed to be kicked out of office, I would have been shot, and my family sent to the gulag if they were lucky. I would not have had the right to speak out against the government.


Well, in fact several Soviet leaders said what you wrote officially. Both were dangerous idiots, one of them didn't have time to completely destroy the country, another one did it.

JFYI: main goal of any government is to impose beliefs on population.

Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33
Any political system that would take away my right to all of the above is a threat to my WAY of life. Never said it was a threat to my physical self. I would however fight to protect my rights, and if that means putting myself in physical danger to do it, so be it.


Any individual that opposes the society is in danger. You can't live outside of society.

The problem with USSR was that it was different from the other countries. It was the most successfull social and economical project in human history. From illiterate agricultural country that starved every few years in 10 years it became an industrial and military power, with millions of educated people appearing out of nowhere, from the grey mass of peasants. After the most devastating war in human history it recovered in less then tree years, and twelve years later it reached into Space, beating Western powers technologically and socially. Yes, it didn't provide some of that imaginary "rights" you mentioned, but it wasn't an Orwellian dictatorship as it's portrayed by propaganda now. It was simply a different way of life, that's all.

USSR could be saved. The Chinese way is wise: not to get rid of ideology and allow some private economical initiative, in the way it was going in 1983-84 under Andropov. Counter-propaganda work had to be done, all the dangers were understood, but, unfortunately, corrupt leadership literally made all Soviet propaganda machine work for enemy - we were spreading enemy propaganda on our own expense.

The roots of the crisis were in the 50s, when economical stimulation system, built under Stalin, was destroyed.

Offline Ripsnort

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2005, 07:58:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Famine was a bad heritage from Russian Empire. USSR avoided mass-starvations since late-40s. Under Czar such things happened almost every year.

I love such arguments. "Talking about the taste of lobsters with people who did eat them" (c) Michail Zhvanetskiy.


Yes I'm sure those 2 million Ukranians that Stalin starved to death deserved it though, right? Of course this is a low number, I gave you the benefit of the doubt since the real number of 7-11 million, which most likely represents the real number, HAS to be western propoganda, right?

http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/genocide/

Whoops! I see you said "Since the late 40's" Nice of you to forget a 25 year period in history.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 08:02:49 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline Boroda

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2005, 08:03:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33

Name me 1 country that the U.S. has taken over by force, and then occupied, and then made a part of our country. Answer 0. You can't say the same thing about the USSR can you? I don't see the U.S. imposing our belives on anyone.


You kidding, right?

Try to read something about how Panama appeared on a map. Funny story, keywords "marines", "cruisers". It's just one of the many examples.

Can you also enlighten me about countries that USSR has taken over by force, and then occupied, and then made a part of our country?

Offline lazs2

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2005, 08:04:05 AM »
animals in the zoo live with free food and free healthcare and the people who run the zoo live in relative freedom and luxury.

socialism is dehumanizing and evil.

lazs

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2005, 08:10:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yes I'm sure those 2 million Ukranians that Stalin starved to death deserved it though, right? Of course this is a low number, I gave you the benefit of the doubt since the real number of 7-11 million, which most likely represents the real number, HAS to be western propoganda, right?

http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/genocide/

Whoops! I see you said "Since the late 40's" Nice of you to forget a 25 year period in history.


[sarcasm]
Rip, all the progressive humaity knows that Stalin the Allmighty didn't allow any rains over Ukraine in 1933, and his only goal was to starve all Ukrainians, just because he thought it will be funny.
[/sarcasm]

Rip, at the same time millions were starving in Volga region, they were Russians, so - noone cares. Russians are not humans. I am probably half-human, my Mother is Ukrainian.

Funny to see how intelligent people repeat this idiotic "gladomor" propaganda crap as parrots.

Can you tell me any reasons for intentionally starving 2 million citizens of the second nation of the Union?

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2005, 08:20:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
You kidding, right?

Try to read something about how Panama appeared on a map. Funny story, keywords "marines", "cruisers". It's just one of the many examples.

Can you also enlighten me about countries that USSR has taken over by force, and then occupied, and then made a part of our country?
panama was a province of colombia which had long held a separatist movement, (much like the basque region in spain) the TR administration exploited those sympathies to advance it's agenda.  panama was established as an independant republic the only area administered by the US Government was the canal zone and under treaty for a specified period of time.  at the end of the specified time the canal was turned over to panama.  please explain how you equate that to what the USSR did?  while you're at please explain what happened to an estimated thirty million soviet citizens who vanished under stalin.  on a minor note why did kruschev use his shoe as a gavel?  is that a ukranian thing?

Offline Masherbrum

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2005, 08:52:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
[sarcasm]
Rip, all the progressive humaity knows that Stalin the Allmighty didn't allow any rains over Ukraine in 1933, and his only goal was to starve all Ukrainians, just because he thought it will be funny.
[/sarcasm]

Rip, at the same time millions were starving in Volga region, they were Russians, so - noone cares. Russians are not humans. I am probably half-human, my Mother is Ukrainian.

Funny to see how intelligent people repeat this idiotic "gladomor" propaganda crap as parrots.

Can you tell me any reasons for intentionally starving 2 million citizens of the second nation of the Union?


Can you tell me why the USSR murdered those at Katyn?   You've dodged this question 3 times so far.

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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2005, 10:39:47 AM »
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Can you tell me why the USSR murdered those at Katyn?   You've dodged this question 3 times so far.

Karaya


10 times I answered that I don't know who killed Poles in Katyn, and I don't see any reason why USSR had to do it. All evidence other then post-war fakes proves that they were not killed by Soviets.

It's a fact that they were shot from German weapons. It's a fact that there was a recreational zone in Katyn in 1940. Anyway you know better because you have been told on TV that Russians are evil. I don't argue with religious fanatics.

90% of what I read here from my opponents is too stupid to argue with. Sorry. You guys all know better then me, you have been told this on TV. It's like as if i'll try to persuade you that all Americans hang black people on weekends for fun and you are all lucky to have a janitor's job, only the upper class has enough to eat.

You don't have a slightest idea of life in USSR. Admit it. It was an alternative to modern society, and it had it's pros and cons.

Offline Flit

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2005, 10:47:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
JFYI: main goal of any government is to impose beliefs on population. [/B]

 Ah, the "crux of the biscuit"
 The purpose of goverment is to protect the rights of individuals.It's the critical part of the puzzle you seem to be missing.Thats not meant to be a flame, but a simple statement of fact.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 11:09:02 AM by Flit »

Offline Hornet33

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2005, 10:49:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
You kidding, right?

Try to read something about how Panama appeared on a map. Funny story, keywords "marines", "cruisers". It's just one of the many examples.

Can you also enlighten me about countries that USSR has taken over by force, and then occupied, and then made a part of our country?


No I'm not kidding. Please name one. Better yet answer me this. How many countries did the USSR take over after WWII? Pretty much all of Eastern Europe huh? Tried to take Germany untill the U.S. with the help of some of our friends decided that the USSR had taken enough and stopped them. Then the USSR decided to build a wall and would shoot anyone that tried to leave. But yeah your right those people had all the same freedoms and rights that I have, and the government wasn't impossing it's will on the people.

If the U.S. had been like the USSR we would own France, Italy, Germany, Libya, Tunisia, Spain, Belgeium, Holland, Japan, and whole host of other nations that we "captured" in WWII. However we did not capture them we liberated them and let the people of those countries elect their own leaders and choose their own path. That didn't happen in the USSR as was seen all over the world in Poland when Moscow sent in the Red Army to restore control because the Polish people decided that the Government in Moscow sucked and they didn't want to be a part of it anymore. But once again the government wasn't imposing it's will on the Polish people, they really invited the Red Army into their country to kill people.
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Offline Boroda

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could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2005, 10:50:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
panama was a province of colombia which had long held a separatist movement, (much like the basque region in spain) the TR administration exploited those sympathies to advance it's agenda.  panama was established as an independant republic the only area administered by the US Government was the canal zone and under treaty for a specified period of time.  at the end of the specified time the canal was turned over to panama.  please explain how you equate that to what the USSR did?  while you're at please explain what happened to an estimated thirty million soviet citizens who vanished under stalin.  on a minor note why did kruschev use his shoe as a gavel?  is that a ukranian thing?


Beautiful. Sending marines supported by navy guns is "exploiting separatist movenent". Incredible lie.

Now tell me how many times was Panama occupoed by US forces.

Same time, different country: Russia didn't blackmail China to build Chinese-Eastern Railway (CERW). Russia payed Chinese for renting Port-Arthur for 99 years, and after USSR returned this ports and CERW in 1945 - it gave it back to Chinese 50 years before the rent was over. I hope that you understand that the only reason for Panama to appear was the Colombian conditions on building the canal. Cruisers and marines saved a lot of money. Certainly, I can't equate it to what USSR did in Manchuria.

Estimated 30 million Soviet citizens vanished in Great Patriotic War, if it's what you meant.