could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
Check your sources, please, before you post.

Next, please.

Born on June 7, 1896, into a peasant family in Kaposvar, Hungary, in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Nagy left school at an early age and was apprenticed to a locksmith. At the outbreak of World War I, he was conscripted into the Austro-Hungarian army, fighting until he was captured by the Czarist army. Nagy joined the Bolshevik Party and the Red Army and became a Soviet citizen.

After World War I, following the communist revolution in Hungary led by Bela Kun, (a Hungarian who had also been a Russian prisoner of war and become a Bolshevik), Nagy held a minor position in Kun's government. When the government collapsed on August 1, 1919, Nagy was forced to flee. During the authoritarian Horthy regime (1920-1944), Nagy returned to Hungary, secretly helping to organize an underground Communist Party, but he was arrested in 1927 and escaped back to Moscow.

Nagy remained in the Soviet Union for the next 15 years (1929-1944), studying agriculture at the Moscow Institute and serving as a member of both the Institute for Agrarian Science and a collective farm committee. After World War II, during the Soviet occupation of Hungary, Nagy returned to Budapest and held several positions in the new government, including interior minister and agriculture minister. In 1949 he protested several party agricultural policies and was expelled from the Politburo. After performing "self-criticism" he was readmitted to the Politburo in 1951 and was forced to carry out the very policies he had protested. He was made deputy premier under communist leader Matyas Rakosi but was elevated to premier after Stalin's death, when Malenkov, who became premier in the U.S.S.R., favored Nagy over the other Hungarian communists.

Nagy advocated a reformist "New Course" that included relaxing the pace of industrialization, allowing peasants to leave collective farms and relaxing police terror. However, when politics in Moscow shifted in 1955 and Malenkov fell out of favor, Nagy fell out of favor, too. He was forced to resign his post and was kicked out of the Communist Party.

The reappointment of Rakosi, a Stalinist, and Khrushchev's "secret speech" to the 20th Communist Party Congress contributed to disquiet in Hungary. To stave off widespread popular discontent, another Hungarian communist, Erno Gero, was appointed first secretary. But events in Poland, as well as domestic events in Hungary, including the reburial of victims of the Hungarian Stalinist purges, led to widespread unrest. By October 23, student demonstrations in downtown Budapest and the unauthorized shooting of demonstrators led to chaos. An emergency meeting of the party Central Committee on the night of October 23 appointed Nagy prime minister, a position he held for little more than 10 days.

My sources seem sound.  Please show me in the bio of Nagy where he was recruited by the CIA or could have been.  Perhaps you should look at sources that do not agree with your world view and use some common sense instead of parroting the party line.

[Skilless]

Originally posted by Boroda
1) US still de-facto occupies half of Europe, while USSR withdrew it's troops. Countries of people's democracy never were a part of the Union.

2) You didn't let anyone elect what they wanted, they elected what you wanted instead. Example: elections in Italy without communists. So-called "democracy" doesn't have anything common with a freedom of choice.

You have cleverly used only Axis nations in your example.  did you see America occupy and install a puppet  regime in France after the war?  Our occupation of "half of Europe" was in fact our former enemies Germany and Italy. The USSR, on the other hand, basically annexed every country it rolled through.  You do understand the basic difference between the words "liberate" and "annex" don't you?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Skilless
You have cleverly used only Axis nations in your example.  did you see America occupy and install a puppet  regime in France after the war?  Our occupation of "half of Europe" was in fact our former enemies Germany and Italy. The USSR, on the other hand, basically annexed every country it rolled through.  You do understand the basic difference between the words "liberate" and "annex" don't you?

Yes I understand. You don't. Maybe you'll say that USSR "annexed" China?

The idea was to build a country-specific version of socialism. Stalin said to Mao in 1949: "You can't copy Soviet methods, you are a diffeent nation and will have to do everything by yourself" after he asked for instructions on socialistic constuction.

You make me remember how in 1999 one American guy told me that Yugoslavia is a former Soviet republic

Both sides liberated their occupation zones, noone annexed anything (except East Prussia). In fact - Western "allies" drew a border by declaring BRD in 1948.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
My sources seem sound.  Please show me in the bio of Nagy where he was recruited by the CIA or could have been.  Perhaps you should look at sources that do not agree with your world view and use some common sense instead of parroting the party line.

I doubt that there were collective farms in Hungary. I doubt that there was something like planned industrialiation there. I don't know, and I may be wrong.

I know that "revolutionaries" in Hungary hanged and tortured Soviet people and our supporters. I know that troops sent there were ordered "not to shoot their guns at buildings" and to try to scare locals rather then kill them. After what insurgents did - they couldn't expect anything else but a full-scale war. Fortunately they didn't get the support from the West they relied upon, West wasn't ready to start another world war without any chance for them to win. At the time of the uprising high CIA officials were in Austria on Hungarian border, but Ike was too smart to let them act.

Inability to act instead of talking was what really doomed USSR. If you are so angry about Soviet operation in Hungary - then what do you think about 11 American invasions into Panama? Or Iraq? How many Americans did Saddam hang on lamp posts?

You try to demonise USSR only to make your own insane aggressive politics look acceptable. The whole issue of "fighting communism" was about coca-cola and chewing-gum sales.

[Angus]

We now have a new cold war. Congratulations.
Anyway, this:
"The USSR would probably still be together if the hardliners hadn't overreacted"

I found to be possibly true.

Well, some just belive HARDLY in the old Commie stuff though....
Remember the thread about the Katyn killings. Denialism to the death...

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Angus
We now have a new cold war. Congratulations.

If one side refuses to take part in a war - it doesn't mean the war is over. Did you really think it really was over?

Originally posted by Angus
Anyway, this:
"The USSR would probably still be together if the hardliners hadn't overreacted"

I found to be possibly true.

It's all more complicated. Hardliners with idiotic desire to "set everything free". Soviet leadership in late-80s was an example of schizophrenic government.

Originally posted by Angus
Well, some just belive HARDLY in the old Commie stuff though....
Remember the thread about the Katyn killings. Denialism to the death...

I don't "believe" in anything. As for Katyn' - I have pure facts that proves Soviet side not guilty, but I still admit that it could happen. Faith is for people like Toad. I always doubt.

[1K3]

Originally posted by Angus
Remember the thread about the Katyn killings. Denialism to the death...

off topic but... didnt Gorbachev already admited the Soviet involvement in Katyn incident in 1990?

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Chairboy
The USSR was just visiting for coffee!  They were invited!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by 1K3
off topic but... didnt Gorbachev already admited the Soviet involvement in Katyn incident?

Gorby also admitted that Soviets crucified Christ. Purely political decision. Poles still refuse to show "documents" provided by Gorbachev. Recent Russian General Procecutor's Office investigation stated that 1800 Polish citizens died on Soviet territory after 1939, and "genocide" didn't happen. BTW, since when execution of 4500 people is "genocide"? Were they the last Poles on Earth? If so - then who are that people who want us to apologise for it?

Hard  to imagine Evil NKVD executing 4500 Poles from German automatic pistols (not 110% reliable Nagant revolvers) in a park where people from Smolensk were walking on weekends. Frankly speaking - I'd like to see it myself, an idiotic scene from an American movie about Evil Communist Regime (tm)

[Ripsnort]

Typical Boroda response to save face due to his fear of being possibly wrong (Hurts the stolic ego)

"LIES!" "Propoganda!"
Face it Soviet man, you wouldn't admit being persuaded to the truth if the truth had a ball gag in your mouth and the facts were slapping your balls.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Face it Soviet man, you wouldn't admit being persuaded to the truth if the truth had a ball gag in your mouth and the facts were slapping your balls.

I see you're familiar with KGB/FSB interrogation techniques.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by 1K3
off topic but... didnt Gorbachev already admited the Soviet involvement in Katyn incident in 1990?

Don't let Boroda know.

Karaya

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
If you are so angry about Soviet operation in Hungary - then what do you think about 11 American invasions into Panama? Or Iraq? How many Americans did Saddam hang on lamp posts?

You try to demonise USSR only to make your own insane aggressive politics look acceptable. The whole issue of "fighting communism" was about coca-cola and chewing-gum sales.

What makes you think I am angry?  You say that it was a CIA sponsored rebellion when it needed some amount of popular support in order to take place.  You say that during a rebellion, soviet supporters were hanged; well, royal supporters in France were beheaded during their revolution, so killing the opposition is a common tool of revolution.

I made no mention of paralells of US vs CCCP foreign policy.

But if you want, all the people the USA has wronged throughout history pales in comparison to Soviets killed by Dzhugashvili.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
well, royal supporters in France were beheaded during their revolution, so killing the opposition is a common tool of revolution.

Don't be so restrictive ... supporter of the revolution where beheaded too... as some others (for fun I suppose ?)

[storch]

boroda = the king of political comedy relief.  thanks boroda for your thoughtful anwsers my sides hurt from laughing.