Whats going on in Canada?

[Yeager]

I am not surprised to hear this news, but it is very sad and troubling.  I would llike to think that this sort of thing doesnt happen in Canada

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/26/canada.shooting.ap/index.html

[Masherbrum]

from linky:   "The Toronto zone was also the site of two other recent shootings. There have been 78 murders in Toronto this year, including a record 52 by gunfire -- twice as many as last year.

"I've seen this city change, and I'm not pleased with it," Belza said. "It seems to be so brazen, so little regard for anyone else's safety."

The rash of recent gun deaths in Toronto prompted Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin to announce earlier this month that his government would ban handguns if he were re-elected in the January 23 elections."

Nothing like treating law abiding citizens like criminals.  Just let the criminals have em.

Karaya

[detch01]

Originally posted by Yeager
I am not surprised to hear this news, but it is very sad and troubling.  I would llike to think that this sort of thing doesnt happen in Canada

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/26/canada.shooting.ap/index.html

It happens up here far too often these days. Although we can't expect much else when judges in Manitoba hand down 2 year sentences for "manslaughter" when the perp got annoyed with someone in a bar, went home and picked up a baseball bat went back to the bar and ambushed the guy who annoyed him and then proceeded to beat him about the head until gray matter starting leaking out. That 2 years of course included time served (4 mths), less an automatic 1/3 of the sentence off for good behaviour and another 1/3 off for when he gets parole and your looking at 4 mths for 2nd degree murder up here if the judge likes you. Of course, there's the recent incident in Quebec, a convict on parole was granted the "right" to own a firearm on his promise he'd only use it for hunting purposes. So my guess is that judicial attitude is nation-wide. The parolee used his rifle to kill a young female officer a few weeks ago. Go figure.
'Tis definitely surreal up here.


asw

[Callisto]

Its all messed up there..

Law obiding citizens are prohibited from defending themselves, or carry guns, while criminals are running around armed and unchalenged..Canadian police?? What police.. these guys incapable of anything...


Then this corruput idiot Paul Martin says he'll ban the guns in Canada, well guns are already banned i dont see how another ban  would   solve  or reduce Toronto murders...just more of his BS talk... It will only get worse.. time to let people arm and defend themselves.

[lazs2]

yep...never understood why if the government or the bad guys were out shooting people....

any sane man would not want to be armed.

lazs

[john9001]

Canadian bacon

[weaselsan]

It's all Boooshes fault....

[FUNKED1]

That's the Christmas Spirit!

[Fury]

You do know that the United States is responsible for Canadian murders?

Canada blames U.S. for gun violence

"It's a sign that the lack of gun laws in the U.S. is allowing guns to flood across the border that are literally being used to kill people in the streets of Toronto"

"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto"

'the illegal flow of weapons from the United States is causing the noticeable rise in gun violence'

-Toronto Mayor David Miller
======================

"What we saw yesterday is a stark reminder of the challenge that governments, police forces and communities face to ensure that Canadian cities do not descend into the kind of rampant gun violence we have seen elsewhere"

-Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin

Apparently it's a problem of guns?  Nothing to do with the people using the guns or why they are using them.

======================

On the other hand, Canadian 'swingers' cheer ruling on sex clubs the Canadian Supreme Court just made moving to Canada more appealing.

[Callisto]

yea.. the easy way out.. blame someone else for your problem.

[eagl]

The solution seems clear...  Shut the Canadian border.  They've been jacking up the anti-US rhetoric for a few years now so it sounds like they're a step away from digging a moat.  Well, we can help with that.  In fact, after they told us they don't want to have anything at all to do with our ballistic missile defense program, it'll probably save us a few bucks too.

The only thing that will really be missed are the Canadian high-flow toilets...  



Yea it's funny, laugh.  The real point is that politicians are the same everywhere and right now, it's politically hip to trash the US so the politicians are grabbing headlines while they can.  That's alright, 'cause in a couple of years it'll be another US presidential election cycle and you can bet some of the candidates will provide entertainment by firing right back.  Fun

[Curval]

This shooting took place in a crowd of people on a major street with hundreds of people packed into a small area.

If guns were allowed to be carried legally in Toronto do you think that somehow this incident could have been prevented?  In other words, would (or should) citizens have returned fire?

Based on the fact that an innocent bystander (15 years old) was killed in the initial exchange would citizens have made the situation better..or worse...if they had been legally armed?

Also, its amusing to see all the "Canadians are blaming the US" backlash when in practically every single gun thread US posters on this board always blame:

1.  A loose border to their own South, where "illegal" guns flow freely into the US.

2.  Minorities...specifically blacks for the most part.

for their massive number of gun related deaths each year.

It is okay for the Americans on this board to blame others but when faced with the fact that over 50% of the gun crime in Canada can be traced to guns coming in from the US there should be no blame pointed at your country?

[MiloMorai]

-Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin

Apparently it's a problem of guns? Nothing to do with the people using the guns or why they are using them.

BS by Martin. All one has to do is look at the ethnic origin of the shooters, in the Toronto cases.

[Ghosth]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.  If they don't have guns they'll use knives, hammers, baseball bats or whatever works that is handy.

If you pass laws so ordinary citzen's can't legally have a gun, only the crooks will have guns. You going to outlaw kitchen knives and baseball bats next?

The problem is deeper than that, sometimes you need to get at the root of a problem, not just the symptom.  

You can NOT legislate morals. Everyone on both sides of the border seems to want to try. But its doesn't work, it won't work, it can't work.

The answer is not more laws, nor even tougher borders.

The answer is to find out why people are killing each other. Then change the situation.

[HugeHead]

I live in Toronto and shop sometimes where this all went down. Had citizens as one of you put it been able to defend themselves with guns then more people would have died and most of the dead would have been more innocent bystanders. Allowing people to carry guns is most certainly not the answer. That would just make it even easier for this kind of senseless violence to occur.

Having said that, I do not agree that banning handguns would stop this kind of violence. The guns involved in this kind of crime are definately not bought legally. In fact, many of them are smuggled into Canada from the US. Don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to place blame on Americans. I'm simply stating fact.

What we do need is a no-tollerance for illegal gun possesion in this country. If you are caught with a gun you get a ten year min sentence and if you use one in a crime you get 25 to life.

We also need tough laws on gangs. Most of the violence can be traced to a couple of gangs in the Jane/Finch area. Get these bastards off the street. I'm tired of hearing about how gang members are victims of the system. Lots of kids grow up under privledged in this country and they don't turn to gangs and start shooting each other.

It is most certainly true though that we must stop the cycle which turns some kids to this life. We must work to resolve the issues which create broken families and poverty. We must support education and activities for youth in lower income areas and we MUST increase the police presense there.

At the same time African and Jamacian Canadians must stand up for themselves and stop allowing these thugs to run their lives. It's incredible to me that a boy can be shot in front of a few hundred people and the police can't get one witness to stand up. And when they do find one brave enough he's assinated on the steps of his church as he attends another victims funeral. We need the police in force in those communities and we need them to change some of their own attitudes so that people in these communities start feeling as if they can trust them to protect them.

And finally...if you are convicted of being involved in any kind of gang activity and you are NOT a Canadian citizen then you should be deported immediately. I don't care how violent your home country is. Don't bring your attitudes and violence here. We have to ask some tough non-politically correct questions here too. Why do some Black Canadians devalue theirs and others lives so? Why does the frustration of the situation some black Canadians find themselves in result in them killing each other and how do we help community leaders turn this around?

We can no longer turn our backs on this. We can no longer be happy to isolate the violence to ghettos. These are people...just like us and we all need to stand up and say enough is enough. And not just say it when the violence spills out to touch other communities.

Oh and let's keep this in perspective....Chicago is about the same size as Toronto and it had over 300 homicides last year. We've had about 78 of which 58 were gun related. It's not good to be sure but, it's no where near as bad as it is in major US cities.

Regards,
HH