FoMoCo crash and burn

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
If unions are suppsed to be the 'check' which prevents greed from running amok in upper management, I pronounce the exercise a dismal failure.

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At least the pie gets shared though.

I am only going on what I was told and experienced.

[/b]  

Does common sense tell you that every single guy delivering pizza is Union?

I do know there are states which have 'right to work' and there are states who do not have 'right to work'.

[/b]

EVERY state has the Taft-Hartley Act; it outlawed the closed shop.

You can have a "union shop" under Taft but then YOU choose to work in a Union Shop. No one can make you take the job.

Of course, Taft allows "right to work" as a choice for states too.

But no matter HOW you slice it, no one can MAKE you join a union. You simply don't have to take a job in a Union or Agency shop.

 

Apparently the union had to have X number of people on site daily.  People could only quit if they had a replacement or it would cost the union money.

[/b]

Then there had to be some sort of voluntary agreement by the worker to this setup before hand.

]If I was overhauling an engine for a plane and was told to short-cut the overhual, I wouldn't.  I do not need a union for that.

[/b]

No, what you would need is a new employer. You see, in the bad places, they will just FIRE you if you don't do what they ask. Having a Union to defend you in that situation makes a huge difference.

Next time I'm in Dallas, remind me to tell you of the time we were "asked" (read: directed) to take an L-1011 from Frankfurt to Atlanta with one hydraulic system out and back-up components inop in each of the other two systems. Glad we had a Union then; we landed in Frankfurt and still got to keep our jobs. And that was at a GOOD airline.

If the company fired me, I would go public and garner a nice settlement.  

Probably not. You'd just get fired and waste a butt load of money on a lawyer going up against a huge corporate law department that would run you out of time and money.



No hard feelings, Skuzzy. We do have a different view. I see it both ways. Unions are a pain. Management is equally a pain. The pendulum swings from one pain to the other pain. Unfortunately, I think you need both pains so you can have a bit of time when the pendulum is in the middle.

[Skuzzy]

I agree GTO.  I like a good discussion.  I think I am backing away from it as I cannot honestly commit to being objective about it.  Too many bad things have happened in my life directly attributable to unions.

I really wanted to understand Toad's perspective, or anyone who thinks unions are a good thing, but not being able to back away from the personal things in my life is intruding on making this a good exchange of thoughts.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Toad
Don't be fatuous.

If you step back and take the long view, you will understand that we, as a nation, cannot compete with another nation where the people are eager to work for 10% of our wages.

It really has nothing to do with Unions or no Unions. It has to do with competition against people who will joyfully work for 10% of your wage.

And again, if you actually read what I said, I'm not pro-Union. I'm just pointing out they do have their place now and then.

Spin spin spin....you know, the other domestic car makers are eeking by...but again, dont let the facts disrupt yur rant.

[Toad]

Again, let me say this simply as I can.

I do not think Unions are a "good thing".

OTOH, I see no way to do without them given the rapacity of American management.

[fartwinkle]

Just maybe the domestic builders have bitten off more than they can chew?
You know like ford owning mazda,jaguar, land rover.astin martin and volvo.
If those hot shot europeon companys were so strong how come they sold to ford?

And I do agree with skuzzy as far as unions go I just think it silly that someone could be paid as much as a teacher to stand there and scew in a few bolts:rolleyes:

I have a friend who works in the Arlington GM plant and he makes a killing in salary and he instals the rear windows on pick ups LOL thats it and he makes

over $20 bucks an hour:O

[Toad]

Originally posted by LePaul
Spin spin spin....you know, the other domestic car makers are eeking by...but again, dont let the facts disrupt yur rant.

LP, try again with the long view. Read what I said.

Yes, some domestic manufacturers are "eeking by". But, in time, they too will be ground under the wheel.

Again, it's real, real simple. Some guy in Changchun, China is willing to bolt together cars for 10% of American wages.

How long do you think it will take for the "eeking by" manufacturers to realize they could make a boatload more money by building in Changchun?

It's only a matter of time.

Sorry if you think that's a rant. I think it's simply common sense.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
I agree GTO.  I like a good discussion.  I think I am backing away from it as I cannot honestly commit to being objective about it.  Too many bad things have happened in my life directly attributable to unions.

I really wanted to understand Toad's perspective, or anyone who thinks unions are a good thing, but not being able to back away from the personal things in my life is intruding on making this a good exchange of thoughts.

GTI??? GTI???????


Do I look like a guy who would name himself after a VW?   Thats way to Eurotrash for me!




I understand the disdain for unions. My only contact with one is my dads screwing my mom out of his retirement.

I can also see a bit of what Toad is saying.  So maybe the airlines being union isnt that bad, but not everything needs to be union, I would not want a tech union, it would just mean even faster outsourcing.


No union needed in tech companies for the most part. Talented people get paid what they are worth or they go to another company that pays them what they are worth.

[Skuzzy]

What you talkin' bout GTO?  See,..who needs an MP?  

As far as the airline industry is concerned.  My conscious would not allow me to do something which could potentially harm people.  If my boss told me to do something like that, there are a number of ways it could be handled where I would not lose my job, but the job would be done correctly.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
What you talkin' bout GTO?  See,..who needs an MP?  

LOL yeah who needs those MP's anyway!:D

[Shuckins]

Personally, I have always believed that American auto-makers have made a deliberate effort to keep prices of all autos sold in the U.S. artificially high.

What other products have shown the awe-inspiring price increases that cars and trucks have over the last 30 years?

For instance, I bought my first pickup, a Chevy Silverado with 350 V-8, in the fall of 1977.  With $1100 in trade-in the amount I had to finance was a mere $4500 dollars.  Financed over a three year period, the monthly payment was $133 a month.

That same vehicle, if purchased today, would cost a minimum of $25,000 to $30,000.  That is around a 500% increase in price over that time period.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Gunthr
Ford has lost billions - sales are in the toilet, while the Japanese car sales are booming.  Why can't Ford and GM be responsive to customers?  It makes you wonder what factors are at work here...

News flash.  GM went through the same layoff in the early 90's.  BTW, Ford is in FAR BETTER shape than GM.   GM (unless they change their ways) will be bankrupt and/or bought out within 5 years.

Ford is doing the right thing, they should have done this 3-4 years ago.  

BTW, in response to the Japanese car sales, the US has one thing and one thing only that the Japanese don't have to worry about:  The UAW.  

Karaya

[Rolex]

Those cars being produced in China are primarily for Chinese consumption, and the standard of living/exchange rate there. The wages are competitive for their environment.

Japanese manufacturers localized production long ago, building factories in the US for US consumption. Not all production, but most.

It really comes down to serious consideration about quality by the people on the factory floor, and not just lip service or advertising slogans. Japanese carmakers have tens of thousands of employees who do their jobs seriously every day. It is just built into the culture. It is built into the culture of all companies and all services. The customer is not king in Japan - the customer is God and the employees simply have more pride in their work.

The adversarial relationship between unions and management at US carmakers hasn't benefitted the workers or the companies. The workers are losing jobs and the company performance is out of step with the times and trundling along only on the back of size and momentum. Uh... the only solution is to change. Not much chance of that, so the trend will continue.


There are some fundamental differences in investment and stock that skew the balance away from US domestic makers. Japanese companies reinvest much more than American companies. Toyota stockholders don't demand or expect high dividends; they expect sound management and reasonable profits for long term stability and growth.

Japanese companies have to be serious about international business and not just domestic consumption. The country is too small to support the standard of living it enjoys. US carmakers consider foreign investment and production as a nusance.

US carmakers have never sold much in Japan or Asia. Why? If the Japanese carmakers used the same logic that US carmakers do, no Japanese cars would be sold in America.

Imagine for a minute that Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda decided to enter the US market decades ago using the same models as they produced in Japan. You show up at a dealership and see cars with the steering wheel on the right, the speedometer is in km/hr, the radio frequencies don't cover the same band, all buttons, instrumentation and even the manual are written in Japanese, and parts and service are rare. Would you buy it? No, you would not.

However, that is the approach US carmakers have to international sales, except for some crapbox Ford Escorts sold throughout the world. Thirty years ago US companies didn't have to be concerned about global standards of tooling or localization of products or design. Well, the calendar has kept moving in spite of that resistance to change and adapt. If you can't even adapt or change to the metric system, there is little hope of a change in attitude.

[Rolex]

And now some even more boring stuff... the US has built (huge) secondary industries to service crappy cars. Drove down any street and you'd swear the entire economy is based on cars needing repair and fast food.

Muffler shops, Wendys, body shops, McDonalds, upholstery shops, Burger King, auto paint shops, KFC, oil service, Pizza Hut, radiator shops, Taco Bell, mechanics, mechanics, mechanics, Crystal Burger, auto parts stores, mechanics, brake shops, mechanics, mechanics...

Japanese cars come from a culture where there are none of these shops. It's a huge nusance to have a car fall apart in Japan. Cars are designed to be transportation vehicles that work with little or no input from the user. No one has time to sit around and work on a car and people just buy a new one every 4-5 years. They send the used ones to Russia or Australia.

If a car breaks down in Japan, the buyer (and all the extended family and coworkers and neighbors) will never buy another car from that manufacturer... ever. The dealer will have to send someone to apologize profusely for weeks for causing such an enormous problem and embarrassment to the customer.

Are the Japanese customers coddled? Sure, but you have reaped the benefit of that culture by having cars needing alot less service.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Rolex
Those cars being produced in China are primarily for Chinese consumption, and the standard of living/exchange rate there. The wages are competitive for their environment.

[/b]

True enough.

Staggering blow: Delphi's bankruptcy ominous sign for fading auto industry

October 9, 2005

UAW showdown looms as company plans to shutter U.S. plants, cut workers, slash benefits

...In its Chapter 11 filing in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York, Delphi said a "substantial segment" of its U.S. manufacturing base will be sold off or phased out over the next two years. The company will also move to slash union wages up to 60 percent, cut health care benefits and free itself of pension obligations to tens of thousands of employees inherited when Delphi was spun off from General Motors Corp. in 1999. ....

Auto parts sales enter fast lane

2004-01-20

The world's leading automotive components supplier Delphi said last week that its consolidated sales on the Chinese mainland surged by 50 per cent to US$650 million last year.

The Detroit-based firm said its growth rate in China increased from 35 per cent in 2002....

...Delphi has invested more than US$450 million and runs 10 manufacturing facilities in China, including eight joint ventures with local partners and two wholly-owned subsidiaries. ...

...Last month, the company started to build its first R&D centre in China, the Delphi China Technical Centre Co, with a total investment of US$50 million....

...Delphi will send more Chinese engineers to the United States for training to strengthen its local R&D capability....

...Delphi will also expand its sourcing in China, following many other multinationals, he said.

...China's ability in sourcing plays a significant role in Delphi's global supply strategy, he added....

Now Main Street's white washed windows and vacant stores

seems like there ain't nobody wants to come down here no more

They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks

Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back to

your hometown

Your hometown

Your hometown

Your hometown

 

[RedTop]

This is an interesting topic for me to read. I own 2 Mazda's. A 626 and a Tribute. I have been thinking about getting a Nissan Murano. (just an aside).

At any rate...I wonder what will happen to the price's of FORD's in the future? 35K for a Truck? Puhleaseeeeeee.

I have sold GM cars before. And as was stated earlier , Hondas , toyotas are made much better.

Also as was stated earlier , the negotiating terms in car deals with these comapnies are FAST becoming a thing of the past. When we bought my wife's Honda a few years ago before her 626 Grandma car:lol it was basically at the deal , told to us , there's the price , thats it. And they didn't move either. None of the Honda places would.

Sales in the american industry are at BEST shady. Don't think for a minute they aren't making money off a "We'll sell it to you 100.00 or invoice". They are making plenty.

Fast talking and 3 or 4 trips to the sales managers office to let them know how the sale is going is starting to fade.

Hate to see the U.S. losing out like what I am reading. But , as was stated before , we're reaping the beifits of a FREE market.

Shame:(