Rudder and trim use

[B@tfinkV]

using manual trim doesnt give you any advantage that wasnt there already. doesnt make the plane fy or turn better than it would to its best abilities.


what it does do over 'combat trim' (automtic trimming) is it means you can keep the elevators giving you a full deflection + the aid of the trim tabs at times when the combat trim would be limiting those movements.


using manual DOES most certainly help to turn tighter than using combat trim simply because the combat trim limits the air flow at times.


the trim tabs on an aircraft work independantly to the control surfaces.

so lets say the trim on elevators is set fully downwards, and you are pulling back on the stick trying to attain full deflection. Even though your elevators will raise to the same extent as with the trim tabs neutral, with the tabs deflecting downwards, they are limiting the effect of the elevator even at full deflection.



no, my explanations arnt perfect, but yes, trim works independantly from the control surfaces and, YES, manual trimming will give you an advantage in imediate turning.

[DamnedRen]

As I had already mentioned....if you really think it works for you then use it. If you think it doesn't work then don't use it.

So here you hear opposite sides as to whether or not manual versus auto trim is best.  If someone tells you it works and you wanna believe it then great! If someone tells you it's doesn't work and you wanna believe that then great! If you took a poll and asked everyone who plays the game you might find out that most people don't use manual trim and guess what...they get lotsa kills too.

If you think using it adds realism and that's what you're into, that's great! Use manual trim!

If you ask the trainers, some use it and some don't. But, there is a difference. The trainers are trying to get you up to speed in the shortest period of time and don't particularly care what your choice is as long as you can take the concepts provided and turn them into real (virtual) life tactics/techniques. If you can't then whether use manual or auto trim it won't really matter. You'll still be spending more time taking off than dogfighting.

[Booz]

Regardless of your preference & style, know that combat trim does not compensate for flap changes.

  Use that as you will.

[Xjazz]

Hi

Use rudder
- to reduce or add the drag.
- for aiming  
- avoid the spin during stall fight
- recover from spin…
- side wind landings
- taxing

Use trims
-  to reduce stick & pedal forces
-  to pull out from high speed dive. Very handy in 109’s
-  to balancing little bit a damaged plane flight characters

 I use manual trim 99% of my flight-fight time. To me Combat Trim is useful only for cruising etc light maneuvering flight. I don’t like to use CT during the fight, because trim settings are roaming all over and this cause control input inconsistency.

[GunnerCAF]

Do a search for "trim" and "HiTech."  Read what he says about trim.  

If you set Combat Trim on, it will turn off as soon as soon as you touch a trim control.  It will turn on again if you use auto-pilot.  So you can use both whenever you wish.  

If it feels good, do it.  What a game

Gunner

[B@tfinkV]

regardless of what anyone here says.....NO ONE can deny that using the trim tabs will tighten your turns and get more out of your aircraft in any given scenario.



Its not about personal preferance, it is simply about physics.



as i said, the trim tabs on most aircraft work independantly to the control surfaces.


there is not one once of truth in saying that using the manual trim does not improve rate of turn/climb compared to letting the combat trim do it for you.

simply is a false statement to say combat trim is just as effective as manual.

you cannot argue with physics.





I dont think it takes a mathematical genius to work out which of these settings will give the most effective results from your elevators.











that being said, its true that many dont use manual trim, and still do fine.

whatever works for you is best, but dont let anyone tell you that manual trimming wont give you a slight advantage.



batfink

[Zaphod]

I thought I read somewhere that AH doesn't model the trim tabs.  I.E. the trim controls affect the actual surfaces in this game...maybe that was AH1 and not AH2.  

At any rate take off in a 109K, hit wep and turn on autopilot or autoclimb.  Take a look at the ailerons and you'll notice that it looks like the ailerons themselves are not in the neutral position to maintain level flight.  That would suggest to me that manual trim controls the surfaces rather than trim tabs on the surfaces.  However...I'm not a pilot and not an expert.  I will say that I don't use manual trim at all (except in the p38 and that is only elevator control to get full use of flaps..it would probably help with any plane using flaps but I'm lazy and doesn't seem to be as big a deal on other rides).  I suggest the 109k since the motor really requires alot of trim to fight the torque roll so you can really see the difference in the ailerons.

If the tabs aren't modelled then you get full deflection of the surface no matter what the trim is set at..since there are no tabs to affect airflow.  

That said the plane will certainly pitch up quicker with joystick input faster with the elevator trimmed full up when it's not necessary to maintain neutral flight at that particular speed (so more sensitive joystick) but it really wouldn't affect sustained turn rate.  However since I can get myself into a snaproll just fine without trimming full up simply by pulling back on the stick quickly (in any plane) I don't feel the need to increase pitch rate or sensitivity.  It might be that if your joystick is sort of sluggish the added sensitivity helps.  In other words if you can't easily pull into a snaproll by yanking back on the stick then maybe adding some up elevator would be good....just guessing.

 I'm want to say that I saw a reply by HT that confirmed full deflection of the elevator is aquired no matter where trim is set.

Oh well my two cents.  It's easy to check simply by going offline and and watching for the control surfaces to move in response to manual trim inputs from internal or external views.

Zaphod

Zaphod

[Xjazz]

BTW

Nice articles about Secondary Flight Controls

http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html


and lot more

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
regardless of what anyone here says.....NO ONE can deny that using the trim tabs will tighten your turns and get more out of your aircraft in any given scenario.

batfink

I forget to add

You said tighter? You mean tighter turn radius?

Let’s say the pilot is flying horizontal turn on the edge of the stall.  If pilot add little bit  more elevator input,  the main wing  maximum AoA exceed and wing will stall.    

Now, how could elevator trim improve your turning radius?

[B@tfinkV]

HMMMMMMM, ya know zaphod you might have a very good point!!


humbly take back all my 'know it all' gibberish then.



my explanation is certainly what happens in real life.


If the trim tabs dont exist, whats the point in us even having a trim function?




if trim tabs are not modeled independantly, then WHY not??





ill think harder next time, before i post, i geuss.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by Xjazz
I forget to add

You said tighter? You mean tighter turn radius?

Let’s say the pilot is flying horizontal turn on the edge of the stall.  If pilot add little bit  more elevator input,  the main wing  maximum AoA exceed and wing will stall.    

Now, how could elevator trim improve your turning radius?

i forgot to add 'instant' before turn radius. my bad. it wasnt regarding sustained turns.


IE: on a merge, you will turn/loop faster/tighter with the elevs trimmed up.

[Schutt]

On high speed with 109k4 and ki84 i can not pull into blackout with the auto trim feature turned on.

If i fly the same high speed but with elev trimmed up i can pull into blackout.

Now, my personal understanding:
blackout-> higher g than not blacked out-> tighter turn.

So at high speeds there are some planes where you need to trim in addition to full joystick deflection for better turn radius.

That maneuvering at that high speeds cost a lot of E, is not used in fighting or does not make much sense on top of does not make a diffrence for aircombat since you should maneuver at diffrent speed altogether is another point.

I totally agree that the combat trim works great for anyone, eaven experienced players, and everyone starting the game should use it. Only thing i say is that manually overriding combat trim in some few situations can give a slight advantage.

[SuperDud]

Most guys I know don't use Man. trim and I've gotten to fight some pretty good ones. Even if it does help ever so slightly in turning, 99.9999% of the time it isn't going to help you win a fight. That normally comes down to who rides the stall better, takes the angles and manages flaps/throttle.

Skev, the advice I'd give you is get the throttle, flaps and everything else down 1st. Then if you feel the need to push your skill "to the next level" then maybe look up someone to teach you man. trim. I feel the only way to get to different levels is to train with many different people and pick it up from them. If one guy can't help or describe it for ya, move on to the next.

[GunnerCAF]

I just found this from Lephturn's Aerodrome.  It looks very good detail article on AH trim:

http://users.eastlink.ca/~sconrad/trim.htm

Gunner

[Roscoroo]

I leave combat trim on most of the time .. (it auto resets to on everytime you push shft x , x  or alt x  ) It resets my tabs .. a quick cntl x and it off .

some planes improve without trim on .. others well .. can become floppy fish

I dont think it matters that much except for pinpoint Jabo drops and digging the  nose outta the dirt .. atleast til your ready for the next level of ACM