So much for separation of church and state

[StSanta]

Jay, now YOU are missing the point  .

There *is* evidence, physical evidence, to be examined in your example. Something has happened. It is up to you to judge available evidence and come to a conlcusion. One of those conclusion can be "evidence shows that something has happened to his hand, but there's not enough evidence to support or disprove his story".

With the god bit, there ain't. there is nothing to examine, no evidence, no support.
Make a claim with this background, and you'll have a hard time convincing a skeptic.

As far as antromorphic gods; I give you Asatru, Islam, Judeaism, Christianity, Old Greek mythology, Roman mythology, Punic (wrong word?) mythology...I could go on.

Few religions avoid it. Some strains of buddhims seem to be able to do so.

funked, I hope he pays a price for being such an utter liar. "uniter, not divider" my @r$3.  



------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch

[mrfish]

i'm on a hiiiiiiiiighway to hell......

[Eagler]

StSanta
Did you think he would unite everyone at once, immediately or on every issue? That's impossible. He's trying to unite as many as possible and at the same time stay true to his roots. Give Bush some time, don't let the spin get to you too soon. He hasn't even been in office a week   I think you'll see, in time, his admin does more uniting than dividing, minus the JJ's and the Sen Kennedy's, NOW's and such. Those groups/mindset wouldn't be happy unless you did it 100% their way... sorry they lost  

Eagler

[Jay_76]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
Jay, now YOU are missing the point   (Image removed from quote.).

There *is* evidence, physical evidence, to be examined in your example. Something has happened. It is up to you to judge available evidence and come to a conlcusion. One of those conclusion can be "evidence shows that something has happened to his hand, but there's not enough evidence to support or disprove his story".

With the god bit, there ain't. there is nothing to examine, no evidence, no support.
Make a claim with this background, and you'll have a hard time convincing a skeptic.

There's plenty of stories of people who claim to have undergone "miraculous" healing and whatnot-  claiming that "the power of the mind is not to be underestimated" as a basis for the healing is no different, in my view, than claiming God did it: what proof is there that the mind can make miraculous healing?  My point is that you can take a phenomenological standpoint and still not be some whacked-out flake.  If, in your experience, personal experience doesn't count for much, then that's all we can say about the subject, for you.  Not everyone, though, shares your personal experience(s) or outlook.

The erstwhile case of the mystery hammer injury, admittedly, would have observable evidence: how far down the road of logical positivism you'll go to determine the truth of the matter (or, maybe it would be better to say the road of forensics, though I begin to wonder if there's much difference between them) is up to yourself. It's almost like a Holmes-esque deduction, in the end: Eliminate all other possibilities, and the one thats left, however improbable, must be the right one.

Re- God in this context, you'd have to examine the evidence as closely as the hammer injury, I agree:  I doubt though that we'd see eye to eye on what counts as evidence.  

I know an aged religious leader who once addressed a crowd on various types of "expression" some evangelicals use, and who said that he'd expect to see some difference in a person who'd been "touched" by God; if nothing changed for that person (and I assume he meant lifestyle) then what good was the experience?  Do those changes count as evidence in your view? Or are they just more of the wonderful "power of the mind" I've heard about?

 

As far as antromorphic gods; I give you Asatru, Islam, Judeaism, Christianity, Old Greek mythology, Roman mythology, Punic (wrong word?) mythology...I could go on.

Few religions avoid it. Some strains of buddhims seem to be able to do so.

Thank you-  my point was I'd expect to see human-like attributation to a god-figure.  I don't understand why its "quite clearly" got to be any other way: if humans have been divinely inspired to worship a deity, what form would a god choose? what language?

Anyhow... maybe another thread would be a better forum.  *grin*

*S* and regards,

Jay.

[Ice]

"But know this, that in the last days, perilous times will come:
"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people, turn away."

2 Timothy 3:1-5

and in addition....

"always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Timothy 3:7


Think about it.

Ice

[mrfish]

 

Originally posted by Ice:
"But know this, that in the last days, perilous times will come:
"For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people, turn away."

2 Timothy 3:1-5

and in addition....

"always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

2 Timothy 3:7


Think about it.

Ice

hmmm....you mean these end times?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


last time i checked that generation passed about 2000 years ago -


[This message has been edited by mrfish (edited 01-23-2001).]

[Tac]

And still no one has said anything about my dollar bill statement. How consitutional is that?


I have read the bible, translated parts of the Koran, Jain texts, budhist texts, Hindu, Shinto, Gaiaist,and so many more I cant remember their names.

I truly enjoy reading them, as they are the only true records from the wisdom of the ancient world. Just ignore all the religious implications in those texts and you will learn a LOT.

Besides, we are all really karmasutra'ists right?    

[AKDejaVu]

 

Besides, we are all really karmasutra'ists right?

I tried to avoid the thread hijacking impulse.. but alas I am only human.  Shouldn't that be "kama sutra"?  I'd hate to think that what comes around goes around during sex

AKDejaVu

[mrfish]

really karma should be kamma anyway deja - it is that way most buhddist texts - same for darma is damma - its just that if you say kamma people think of punctuation

[Apache]

Interesting path this thread has taken.

A simple test.

Ask a friend to stand in the middle of a room, saying nothing, doing nothing. You stand before him/her but turn your back to him/her. Ask another friend to stand with you, facing away from friend #1. Now, without turning around, convince to friend #2 that friend #1 does or does not exist.

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 01-23-2001).]

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by mrfish:
 
hmmm....you mean these end times?

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


last time i checked that generation passed about 2000 years ago -


[This message has been edited by mrfish (edited 01-23-2001).]

mrfish

I was under the impression Matthew was referring to the generation which sees the signs described earlier in the 24th chapter.  

Eagler

[StSanta]

Ice, it's the normal Christian dogma of saying "ok, we cannot prove our stuff, so we'll just call anyone who doesn't see it our way a heretic and blind to the truth, without supporting our assertions since we never do, and since everyone believes in this stuff as a matter of faith, we don't have to". Incredibly convenient.

No insult inteded, but it is a bit insulting to be called blind to the truth for requiring claims to be substantiated. Not to mention all the names ya listed there.

Re: miracolous healing; we don't know is the answer. Well, we do know to some extent; experiements with the placebo effect have shown just how much mental attitude can affect body functions. Youga practitioners can lower their heart rate at will and there are examples of people directing their blood flows. So, we don't know everything yet, and then we should say "we do not know". Not "god did it" or "science says it is this" *unless* there is evidence either way.

Evidence. I see evidence in the scientific way. Logical positivism to an extent, yes.

How do I judge whether a bridge is safe to cross? Available evidence. I do not go by faith. I suspect this is how most of us go around in our daily life. The question is; why do some of us stop when it comes to spiritual matters?

Ugh, being called all those names got me p'd off. I am gonna stop here.

I HATE such a dogmatic approach. I hate that way of "discussing", since it ain't discussing.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch

[mrfish]

I was under the impression Matthew was referring to the generation which sees the signs described earlier in the 24th chapter.  

Eagler[/B][/QUOTE]

could be eagler but that isnt my interpretation of the verse

matthew told everyone to drop what they had, dont bother getting married or making plans for the future just run to the hills because it is all coming down - i think they thought it was all going to happen right away - that is what the texts sound like at least

this stuff was very popular among jewish thinkers at the times though - and christianity is really only a sect of judaism. you have to believe in the first part of the bible for the new testament to be relevant to you right? in fact, had it not been for paul's influence on the early church non-jews might have never been admitted to the club -

i guess it can be debated all day and has for ever but none of my ancestors were from isreal or the middle east or were jewish at all for that matter so this fulfullment of prophecy stuff is the part of christianity i always have trouble with - that and the inconsistent resurrection and other stories among the 4 gospels.....so how many angels and marys were there - was the stone there or moved? if there is inconsistency in even one place it makes blind faith a little tough....

dont get me wrong though - i am not foaming at the mouth against the church, i have on my wall a framed verse from the new testament- the part where jesus kicks the money-changers out of the temple. to me it is an awesome story about modern culture and value conflicts and keeps me going sometimes-  but i still wonder how this middle-eastern jewish sect got to the forefront of america and europe, nothing against the jews but it doesnt seem very relevent to me as a caucasian -  


[This message has been edited by mrfish (edited 01-23-2001).]

[Ice]

Santa...

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Hebrews 11:1

It's not uncommon in this world for those without faith to condemn those with faith.

The choices you make in your life are your business...I wish you the best

Cyas in the skies!

Ice

[Eagler]

to each his own, mrfish <S>

Don't think you can take everything in the Bible at face value, it's there to guide, comfort and enlighten. There have been so many interpretations and edits - i.e. when the reference to reincarnation was removed in 4th century by Emperor Constantine and again in the 6th century by the 2nd Council of Constantinople - that each of us has to take what wisdom from it we are ready for it. I think this goes for most "religious manuals" whatever the faith. They are all paths leading to the same House. We just have to choose a path that's right for us now and try to follow it without knocking anyone else down or falling down too many times ourselves...

Eagler