Hi Kieren
Appreciate your response. Don't worry about being overbearing; as a non theist, it's a quality few people have. As a LW pilot, it's a necessity. Personally, I don't think explaining ones views and ideals fall into this category.
I'd like add some additional question, or where necessary, come with my views on the Christian philosophy, from an outsiders point of view.
Yes, the Bible does express that humans, all humans, are worthless without God. It does lump me in there with child molesters as well, but it is more complicated than that. From an absolute standpoint sin is sin. The line in the sand is harsh and absolute.Absolutism, I feel, is a human concept. Much like an ideal mathematical circle, it can be found in thought but not elsewhere. It's also an inherently dangerous thing - "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". This is especially true when we're talking about religious absolutism (which that comment quite nicely is directed at). One problem is it is unadressable - it cannot be questioned or discussed. If humans were absolutists, our curiosity would have been reduced to near nil and social and technological advancements be close to that as well. Perosnally I adhere to "nothing exists absolutely" (and no, that's not an absolute statement
.)
"On the other hand there is the amount of sin one commits to consider as well. Remember, by
the Christian viewpoint one must confess and repent sin to be forgiven. To completely repent means to recognize and attempt to change (with God's help) what is wrong with your life. God knows what is in your heart, and knows when your request for forgiveness is genuine. He knows when you truly intend to change. He is ready to help when you are ready. Still, the more sin you commit, the more you need to repent, the more change necessary.[/b]
It is my understanding that any level of sin is enough to exclude you from paradise unless you receive God's forgiveness, which is given to you, as you say, by God's grace when he knows you're sincere. It could be argued that this opens up the possibility of one final repentance and that the amount of sin really isn't importance.
For a non theist, or someone like me (western humanist with anarcho-syndicalist tendencies
) the abandonment of self reliance is also troublingWhile I accept interdependence with other humans is existant, I seek to minimize it in most critical areas of life. Where it cannot be minimized, I cultivate it. Personal improvement is a field that is aptly suited for individual and personal work without the interference of external forces.
So here, we can agree to disagree, quite civilly
.
There is another reason the amount of sin is troubling- after a while your heart hardens and you become insensitive to the sin in your life. It becomes easier and easier to do things that you know you should not do. Pretty soon the sin pervades your life completely, so much so that the original you is lost in it.I'll replace the word "sin" with "wrong doing" to get it secularized. After doing so, it is hard to argue with this argument. I still think you are what you think and do - the sum of your experiences and thoughts. The original you exists in the present and nowhere else
. Am glad I am not the same gung ho testosterone poisoned "wow this looks cool I'll try it despite the consequences" individual I was as teenager
.
Now here comes the kicker- if you look at the things that God would eliminate from your life you see that they are almost all self-destructive. Take the Ten Commandments as a simple example. These rules were designed to apply simple rules of co-existance for the people of Israel. Jesus made it even simpler when he summed up all the laws of Moses; love one another.Some are, but far from all. The bible's take on homosexuality and general misogynism is hard for a European liberal (carries the opposite meaning than the American liberal) to swallow. Also people coexisted succesfully before Christianity; the ten commandments effectively is just a summing up of ideals and moral laws that have been with the human animal ever sine we turned into a social flock animal. It can be seen in more primitive forms in other species of animals as well.
Finally "self destructive" must be defined on a personal level. Had a long discussion yesterday with a friend about when the state should intervene to stop the individual from doing potentially dangerous things. My example was diving on old WWII wrecks - if I was to find a WWII wreck, do a dive on it and find old ordnance; bombs, ammonution and so forth, the state would instantly put a dive ban on that wreck. Here I disagree with the state about what is self destructive; my point is that it is life enriching and the state has the opposite position. Exchange the state for an absolute authority and you have the problem, only in an absolute form which is even worse.
"Love one another" is a good rule. Unfortunately, it is a bit simplistic when looking at complex group interaction and conflicting areas of interests. I feel the best approach is to be realistic and find a compromise that might not be to everyone's liking but can be accepted by all parts.
Love? What does that mean? Sex? Familial bonding? Romance? Love in the Christian sense is serving and caring for others before yourself.Admirable, but exposes onself to self destruction and abuse. Perhaps it is good to some degree, but not perfect.
God is referred to as "our Father in heaven" for a reason; it signifies the relationship we have with Him. Parents can readily understand the unrelenting love they have for their children, regardless of their
transgressions. Your children can anger you, mock you, steal from you, but in the end you still love them. At times it isn't easy. Sometimes, because you love them, you must allow them to suffer the consequences for their decisions. Sometimes those consequences are painful, but it must happen to teach and prepare them for what comes after. This is what God does with us. He is always ready to forgive us if we change, but he will eventually allow us to suffer the consequences of our actions if it is in our best interests (as interpreted by Him, not us).Consequences such as lingering and painful disease, utter destructon of personality, victimization. Consequences from things outside your personal control; a robbery, a volcanic eruption, an earthquake.
I believe it is also true that parents, loving ones that is, would go to extremes to ensure that their kids have as good possibilites as there can be. Here, god creates fallible humans and then let them play on a stage of his creation, subitting them to humiliating and painful failures and disasters. A good human parent would not do this. I believe that to lose the love of my parents, I'd have to torture my siblings or something like that - disobedience is simply not enough.
If we remain incorrigible we are eventually cast out (separated from God). Bear in mind, this is our choice, not God's. It is God's desire that all be saved. It is why He brought Jesus into the world.I would have to disagree. If we are to use the analogy of human parents, this is not true in all cases. And God, with all his power, could have created a place where the'd be no need for salvation. he could have cut his losses when the Alpha version of Humans went wrong, instead of submitting *innocents* to rules of *his* creation, unbending rules, sometimes unacceptable and unreasonable rules.
He gives us the capacity to question, yet is unwilling to see that capacity used against himself if the outcome results in a negativ image of hi. Send the buggers to hell if that happens. Again, this does not in my mind correspond to an image of a loving parent.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch
