Its only a matter of time before the US/Chino war

[Sturm]

BTW they made it out of that encirclement and inflicted heavy casualties on the Chinese.  We did not get our prettythanges kicked there, yes they were ambushed basically, but for the chinese numbers and tactical ground they were on they did a poor job of decimating a weaker opponent.  

China has the population but their training and technology is a far cry from what we have and are capable of.  If population meant anything I think the russians are proof "WW2".  If it wasn't for lend lease where would the russians have been?  

[Maverick]

Whoa people,

Before you start looking to the Korean Police Action for a testament to how a future conflict would end up remember. It was NOT a war. It was a LIMITED action (on our part) that tied the military's hands behind their back. Now I am NOT saying that was wrong. I am just stating there was an artificial limitation on the military.

Rip, you are partially correct in that the allied forces were pushed back to the Chosin Reservoir. You are NOT correct in that the Chinese did NOT kick our prettythanges. They were in turn pushed back to the 38th parallel where the US was stopped by the orders of the Commander in Chief. The Inchon invasion by MacArthur cut the Chinese supply lines and rolled back the lines in a very short time. Truman relieving MacArthur (not without due cause) ended his leadership of the actual fighting and placed the conflict into a stalemate. It should be noted that the majority of the casualties suffered by the US were IN that stalemate period. The fluid battle period were not as costly as merely digging in and fighting over the same freaking few hundred yards for a protracted time.

The introduction of "safe harbors" for the enemy's planes (ala the Yalu River line) was another artificial limitation on the allied options that let the Chinese (and Russian) "helpers" assist the North Korean military. Had the Allied air forces not ben hobbled there would have been no opportunity for the north to build up troops and supplies close to the border of Korea prior to placing them into action farther south.

BTW China used the position that the Chinese troops in Korea were "volunteers" so that they could "maintain" a position that didn't "indicate" an expansionist policy. (And if you believe that.. I have some beach front property for sale in Yuma AZ.) This makes it into a non aggressive action on their part. The Russians only admitted to placing "advisors" in a non combat role helping the North Koreans airforce. Later documents showed they did have a limited combat role during the conflict.

Conflict around Taiwan will have some significant problems for the US. The supply lines will be very long. The Chinese lines very short. The Chinese also know the US has little patience in a protracted conflict. All they have to do is start the conflict then dig in their heels to let it drag on and hope the US will lose the "enthusiasm" for the fighting. If that happens the Chinese (who do take little notice of what their own people think) will simple win by default.

Any conflict will have to be short and decisive for the US to be able to dictate the terms of ending it.

Now that I have dropped all this info, let the debate begin!!  

Military strategists speak up.

Mav

[Wingnut_0]

Sturm, they would of been in Berlin just a few months later...The russians even with inferior equipment for most of the war still threw brigade upon bridage in and that finally broke the back of Army Group North and South.  

When it comes to China.  China, even though communist, is not country that we should laugh away.  Though many of their military items are outdated compared to the US arsenal, China represents a possible overwhelming factor that modern tech cannot fully defeat.

The fact that China has integrated it's Air defense with fiber optics tells me, along with other projects, that China is serious about updating.  Just like Russia during those "cold war" years, the US was mistaken about many things concerning the Russian military that was not discovered till after the fall of it.  

China is not a country that the US should WANT to fight, by any means.

[Sturm]

 

Originally posted by Wingnut_0:

Sturm, they would of been in Berlin just a few months later...The russians even with inferior equipment for most of the war still threw brigade upon bridage in and that finally broke the back of Army Group North and South.  

Wingnut the only reason the russians were able to hold at Moscow was from the vast amount of resources given to them from the allies.  I believe it is in Von Mellinthin's book I will find the passages about the increasing odds they were facing of allied lend lease equipment.  

The size of the army well lightly put does not matter.  What matters is the spirit and quality of the troops.  history has shown a smaller army can defeat a much larger one.  And honestly do you think our other allies are going to stand around twiddling their thumbs?  Chances are no, if china defeats the US guess who is next? Or better put who would be able to stop them.      

And thank you maverick for getting across my point from which I had stated earlier about a certain someone in the oval office stopping us from kicking the crap out of the chinese.

[This message has been edited by Sturm (edited 04-26-2001).]

[Dowding]

Korea was a war from another age.

And don't forget the British were there too. Because over here, Korea is a forgotten war.

Remember the Gloucester's Regiment - 650 men held a hill against 10,000 Chinese.

And only 40 men from that regiment survived.

[Boroda]

Sturm, should we kiss your shoes for your crappy second-hand planes and matchbox tanks? Or maybe for "second front" when Soviet Army have already won the war?

JFYI: the Moscow battle happened before "allied" help reached USSR. If Soviet counter-attack could have begun not on December, 6, but a few days earlier - I think that USA could stay out of WWII.

And the war with China is the most stupid thing that US can do. The only good side of it will be that US will forget about "world domination" for a long time.

------------------
With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[Udie]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
When we arrived at the Yala river, we met over 1 million Chinese.  Remember Chosen Reservoir?...the Chinese kicked our ass.

Yes, the Oval office did hesitate from escalation, but at that point, the only escalation was of one to nuclear exchange.

 Didn't we end up designing a bunch of new guns that can kill by the hundreds just to defeat the human wave attack?

 Question is can the US survive w/ the lost of 13 major cities, and would Russia nuke us after we obliterated China w/ nukes?  Or will our anti missle "laser" be working by then, personaly I hope so.

 This whole thing reminds me of something I though back in '89.  The cold war ended and USSR was broken up. Everybody said yeah! the cold war is over I don't have to worry about nuclear war, then they started the massive downsizing of our military.  I have always thought, even as a "liberal" teenager that this was stupid.  Because instead of there being 2 or 3 countries w/ nukes there are now 13 or 14 countries w/ nukes, 11 of which are poor.

 We should have listened to Patton when we had the chance, now it's probobly too late.....


Udie

[Betown]

I have one thing to say.

"If the US and China go to war. Then God help us all"

Because all of us know that if they do. Then it won't just be the US that is drawn in. The UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy. Most of the Allied Coalition will be thrown in. While most of the East will fall in under china.

We would be looking at another war on a global scale. A conflict between two major super powers would almost defiantly escalate into an all out gang banging session for whoever or whatever they could get out of it.

If the US went to war with china. What would happen to Saddam? While America plays war games saddam will be biding his time and eventually he will strike...

[funked]

Kilos are loud.  Easy to track.  You can rest assured that USN knows where they are at all times.

If China tried to go across the sea to Taiwan, they would lose all their ships and most of their planes.  There would be no ground war in Taiwan.  US and Taiwan would lose some ships and planes too, but China would not be able to invade.  No ground war.

The only ground war would be if they tried to invade South Korea.  I suppose they could pull that off if they were sneaky enough.

I really doubt China would start throwing nukes around.  Their forces are not strong enough to wipe out US nuclear forces.  The best they could hope for against the US and allies is to take out a few cities before their country became a glass parking lot.

[Ripsnort]

Hmm, let me re-phrase "Kicked our ass"...when we got to the Yala and saw that our soldiers were outnumbered 10 to 1, and a zillion miles from home, as well as a supply line that was as far away, we changed our minds.  (BTW, that's what I consider 'getting your bellybutton kicked'...you're stalemated...you either retreat, or get wiped out, or escalate to nuclear weapons, we chose retreat)

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-26-2001).]

[funked]

FWIW Von Mellinthin's book is quite anti-Bolshevik and seems to be written to please his cold war masters at the Pentagon.  Like The Blond Knight of Germany it is one of the stronger pieces of Cold War propaganda that I have read.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-26-2001).]

[funked]

Another comment:

Let's not forget who initiated this problem.  The Chinese have for several years been building up their missile, air, land, sea forces that can strike Taiwan, while spewing increasingly agressive rhetoric towards this Democracy.  Unfortunately the previous administration, either due to corruption or lack of testicular fortitude, did nothing to discourage them.  The Chinese made this mess, and because the last President didn't do his job, Bush is forced to be the one to clean it up.

[batdog]

 Well... I dont think there will be ANY conflict. CHina is certainly a threat... BUT they realize they cant compete with us at THIS moment. CHina is a nation known for its patience. It has a sense of history and future planing few other if any nations can claim. The will rattle thier sabers and then wait till THEY get the techno they need... then they will make themselfs felt...
 China is about 15-20 yrs behind us techno wise at best. They're simliar to a slightly better Iraq. We would be able to cripple alot of thier command and control, fleets etc but it would be at a higher cost than Iraq...
 
 Oh and to our Russian friend... dont fool yourself. Stalin PUSHED the allies to launch DDAY for a 2 front war against Germany. DO not forget that US/British bombers where raining death upon the German factories and such perventing those materials from reaching the eastern front. Germany was a formidable foe and Stalin knew this... or at least those Generals like Zukov(?) certainly did. The LL program helped alot I'm sure but I think it was mainly support items... trucks,parts etc?
Russia had some of the best tanks of the war.. t-34's and plenty of soldiers willing to die for what they believed in.

Anyway... here's to peace... every real soldiers goal!

batdog

[Gargoyle]

quote:"China's manifest is world domination. Don't let anyone else fool you into believing anything else."

Well, looking at global actions and policy over the past 100 years, compare how much the territorial boundaries of China have changed over the past 100 years (shrank slightly) to the US (increased vastly).  Also, compare how many times their military has globally intervened in conflicts (China, 2 or 3 times) to the US (at least once every 5 years or so).  One might question who really desires to dictate global policy as a manifest?

The "communism" dirty word isn't always the same for all times.  China's current communist policy should not be equated with Kruschev-ian communist policy.  I think it is a mistake to compare the China of the 50's with the China of today.  Equally, it is a mistake to do so with the US as well, both countries bear no resemblence to the coutries of 50 years ago.

However, despite all of the progress in human rights we've made, I see Bush's foreign policy chillingly close to the Truman/Eisenhower period, yet without the "great enemy" that necessitated that policy in the 50's.

All this over a stupid bumping of airplanes.  There weren't even any american lives lost!  I just don't get it....

Bush scares me.

[loser]

 

Originally posted by Kirin:
Errr, Rip, isn't world domination the US manifest?  

nice one kirin...the manifest destiny makes me laugh