Author Topic: Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?  (Read 18632 times)

Offline Urchin

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2006, 10:50:16 AM »
I read some book (a novel) that said the whole global warming thing was a farce... it had plenty of scientific journal references though, and used them in the book.  

One of the simplest things to look at is temperature charts from major cities.  It would be reasonable to expect that if there were "global warming" it would show up on something as basic as a graph of average temperature vs time.  Some cities have been taking temperature readings since the 18th century, so there is plenty of data available.

For some cities there actually does appear to be some kind of upward trend... but for a lot of cities there isn't.  The trend is either flat or actually slightly downward (i.e. the average temperature is dropping as we come closer to the present).  

I'm no expert, but I'm going to wait until the experts can agree on it before I move to Colorado.

Offline Rolex

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2006, 11:25:25 AM »
* This has nothing to do with the NASA guy.*

Alright, I'll walk you through the executive summary, then dig up some heavy reading links.

First, I'll preface by saying that I have always been skeptical of many of the claims by 'environmental wackos' and activists such as Greenpeace through the years. Also, that I'm not an emotional or Liberal Arts kinda guy - my undergraduate degree is in Mechanical Engineering - (not too touchy/feely, save the whales type) and my Masters in Political Economics (a boutique field, to say the least) is the cloth that capitalists, like me, are cut from.

I was going to start with the premise that 'apathy' was the real crisis we face, but I decided not to - nobody cares about apathy.

For 3 days after 9/11, the skies were very bright in urban areas from the lack of con trails spread across the skies, and a scientist began studying and plotting the gradient in high to low temperatures from thousands of reporting stations across the country. Matching similar historical data with the 3-day break in con trails, and continuing the recording of the data afterwards, yielded a surprising and puzzling result. The average temperature spiked up 1 deg C for the 3 day period.

That may sound like a small amount, but it isn't. It's huge - but puzzling. We don't consider con trails to be major pollution compared with the massive amount of other particulate matter we belch into the air everyday. And the Earth is heating up from greenhouse gases, right?

If the Earth is supposed to be heating up, and we removed a small amount of the total particulate pollution from the equation for 3 days, why did the temperature go up? Shouldn't it have gone down?

Clouds form from moisture condensing onto dust or pollen particles. As more moisture condenses on each particle, they eventually become heavy enough to fall as rain. But the particulate matter from con trails and other pollution is smaller and less water condenses onto each soot particle, forming clouds that are reflective.

All clouds filter sunlight, but these clouds are reflecting sunlight in addition to filtering it. The old double whammy. The clouds have been cooling us off from the heating effect of greenhouse gases. Dot number 1.

Next, some older studies that were dismissed as being uninteresting (they didn't make sense to us then, so we ignored them) showed that the Earth was getting less sunshine. Less sunshine? Controlled experiments from agriculture, repeated after decades, had shown that the Earth was receiving 20% less sunshine than 50 years ago.

Pan evaporation rates from around the world show an identical 20% reduction. It's identical because evaporation is a function of sunlight, not temperature. Two separate, but previously unconnected data confirmed each other, dot 1 and created dot number 2.

We don't have to connect alot of dots here. All of the models we have been using to estimate the impact of greenhouse gases have been wrong. We were worrying about the temperature of Earth rising 5 deg C over the next hundred years - 5 deg C overall heating is pretty much the breaking point for us humans. We reach 5 deg C rise and we're likely past the point of no return.

What we now know is that we have underestimated the heating effect of greenhouse gases. The clouds from our pollution have been reducing our normal heating from the sun and masked the true impact of the gases. We are far more impacted by greenhouse gases than we thought. The environmental wackos were wrong - it's much worse than their worst case. In fact, it twice as worse as their worst case.

Plug in the new numbers and we'll be at a 5 deg C elevation in 50 years and 10 deg C overall change in less than 100 years. The Earth was last at that temperature 4 million years ago - before man was around. Our goose will be cooked.

We've been like the proverbial frog sitting in a slowing heating pan of water.

We have two forces pulling from each end of a rope. One one side is greenhouse gases heating us up and our particulate pollution cooling us down. The gases are winning since the whole rope is moving toward them. The less we pollute the air, the hotter we get. How's that for a problem we got ourselves into?

So, let's just pollute more? No, because that pollution is killing us another way.

Particulate pollution from our industrial centers in the temperate zone are stopping the natural movement of winds north and south of the equatorial zone that create life-giving monsoons. We're changing our weather patterns and ocean currents, and overheating our tropical waters and equatorial areas. The result is stronger tropical storms from the higher water temperature, and longer seasons of tropical activity.

Okay, that is good news. You want to hear the bad news? The bad news is that we aren't polluting the air as much over the polar areas as we are in the temperate zone. Remember dot number 1? Not as many new, man-made clouds over the poles explains why we're losing the ice caps faster than we could explain. Now we can explain it.

There is a tipping point. The tipping point is the Greenland ice. We are fast approaching a point where we can no longer stop it's melting. You can't build a levee or dam up the water flowing under the ice that is melting it from underneath. It will be unstoppable after the tipping point. New Orleans is just a taste of things to come when you consider the effect of a 3' rise in the Atlantic Ocean along the eastern US seaboard and in Europe.

What is the tipping point? I don't think anyone wants to guess. Can we estimate from temperature alone, or will we just know it after it passes?

There are plenty of scenarios to consider, but none have a happy ending. The climatic changes are already starting and will continue. Exploring all the scenarios is a waste of time. The only thing we have to consider is how much time we have to act, and what action to take.

There is but one solution to the action: We must immediately go onto a war footing to reduce greenhouse gases.

There is but one time to start and that is now. We have only about a ten year window to make that happen, or we cannot stop the heating (and melting) momentum, no matter what we do. If we haven't reduced greenhouse gases significantly in 50 years, we will have cooked our goose. We can't just curb the increase, or reduce the rate of growth or even cap them to todays level. That won't save your children or grandchildren.

If we get to that 5 deg C rise 50 years from now, it's unlikely we'll be unable to stop momentum from pushing to a 10 deg C rise just a few generations from now. That will be Armageddon because we are not a hearty species. How many of us will be left? Fifty percent of all the animal species on the planet now will be extinct or near extinction by then, at those temperatures.

We thought we had a few hundred years before distant relatives would have to deal with it. Now it looks like we, or are children are going to have do it. Vacation is over. You sat on your butt and got fat and lazy through most of your life. It's time to do something with your meaningless life.

The daily nonsense of Hollywood, Iraq, Iran, politicians, etc. is meaningless. This transcends all religions, nationalities, political persuasions, sexual preferences and colors of skin. If you are not part of a grassroots effort to encourage and mobilize your church, synagogue, mosque, school board, neighbors and co-workers to force your government to begin something to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, you are anti-humanity.

Here is some interesting reading to start.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 11:36:59 AM by Rolex »

Offline Bronk

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Re: Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2006, 11:53:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Rolex brought up something in the Theology thread.. basically; we've screwed the atmosphere, so we're gonna melt.. or something... and the endgame is 20 years off or thereabouts.

 


There is a problem with this 20 year theory. 30 years ago global cooling was going to bring on the next ice age. If its on 60 min it has a spin.
Nuff said.




Bronk
See Rule #4

Offline Rolex

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2006, 11:57:59 AM »
Yes, it was a novel, Urchin. Michael Crichton earns millions by writing fiction that seem plausible on the surface by pulling highly selective (and many times mistaken) parts of basic science. Do you believe they really made dinosaurs in his book and movie?

The scientists and professors he visited while 'researching' his book wrote scathing rebuttals to his wholesale twisting of the information they gave him in response to his questions. They unanimously said that he was wrong.

Offline Krusher

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2006, 12:02:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK


what his true findings are


Not to nitpick, but the term "true" may have one side but with global warming there is still more than one POV. Scott Pelly (60 min) has been on a one sided rant about global warming for years now. He didn't bother with the other side of the coin with this interview either.

James Hanson has been a shameless self promoter since the late 80's when he first cried "the sky is falling" First he claimed he could prove the temperatures had gone up point something or other but when the numbers didn't match his "true" findings he changed the subject. Now he claims that glacier melts "prove"  that man is causing the problem. Hell he might be right but he has been wrong before and sold a book on his "true findings"

He might have more credibility if he didn't try the bad old nasa guys tried to squelch me BS. he has been talking the same stuff with different facts for almost 20 years. he is about as squelched as Bill Maher.

We might be experiencing warming but the world is going to end in 20 years bs is not helping.

Offline Monk

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2006, 12:11:24 PM »
No global warming.  The earth is turning upside down.

Offline Lye-El

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Re: Re: Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2006, 01:42:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
There is a problem with this 20 year theory. 30 years ago global cooling was going to bring on the next ice age. If its on 60 min it has a spin.
Nuff said.




Bronk


Yeah, I remember that as the coming disaster of the time. Complete with how we would need nuclear powered heaters to melt the advanceing glaciers.


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline lazs2

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2006, 02:07:39 PM »
go ahead mav... you are doing the right thing.

I hope all you guys who are afraid of guns are stocking up on food and stuff that I might need.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2006, 02:10:25 PM »
but... rolex is convinced... fair enough.  We have only a very few years to get it together or face.. whatever.

what would you, rolex, suggest that we do?  let me guess what the "scientists" involved suggest....

Spend a whole lot of money on research (and put em on the today show).

lazs

Offline beet1e

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2006, 02:14:55 PM »
Rolex - good post. I posted a thread which may be of interest, but I think you missed it - it's here. At that time, many folks were in denial about the global warming problem.

Offline lazs2

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2006, 02:25:32 PM »
"At that time, many folks were in denial about the global warming problem."

And now we are not?

lazs

Offline DREDIOCK

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2006, 03:08:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Ah! Sounds like I'd like to see this article... got a linky i can clicky?


LMAO I put the link in my first post in this thread.

60 Minutes the head of NASA's Top Institute Studying the Climate. [/B][/QUOTE]

I dont know if it mentiones it in the article as I didnt read the entire thing. From breifly scanning over it I am assuming its pretty much the transcripts f what he said on the show.

But I know he said it. I saw him say it
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2006, 03:15:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
Not to nitpick, but the term "true" may have one side but with global warming there is still more than one POV. Scott Pelly (60 min) has been on a one sided rant about global warming for years now. He didn't bother with the other side of the coin with this interview either.

 


I beleive I said "his" true findings;)
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Skuzzy

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2006, 03:24:53 PM »
The amount of information available on this topic is rather large.  And just as many opinions seem to pervey it as well.

Do not forget meteorologists also hold that the Earth goes through cycles of weather.  From one ice age to the next is a rather long period of time, but it happens.  During the time between ice ages, the Earth's atmospheric termperatures rise and fall.  Some metoerologists feel (I say *feel* as there is no way to actually prove it) we are on the leading edge of the high temperatures and in a few hundred years the temperatures will peak, and the start of the next ice age will be begin.
None of this happens overnight, and after the start it will take another serverl hundred years before the Earth is an ice ball again and then it will warm and start the process over again.

Long before the next Ice Age happens the Moon will make its departure.  This will end life on Earth before the next Ice Age happens.

The Moon departure is real and easily verified.  The weather stuff is still somewhat more art than science and almost impossible to pin down.

I could care less about the so-called "global warming".  Seems it is going to happen in spite of us amd mankind will all be dead once the Moon makes its departure.  Hmmm.  Mankind just does not stand much of a chance at all.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
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Offline AWMac

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Global Warming... is THIS how we'll perish?
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2006, 03:38:57 PM »
Yeah...what Skuzzy said!!!

It's NOT like this is gonna happen in "2 weeks"....


:D


Mac