Atheism and the USA, followup

[wrag]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Believing that there are no gods is a characteristic of some atheists, not atheism in general.  Most atheists (like myself) simply lack a belief in god(s) without having a belief that no gods exist.

The difference between atheism and agnosticism is belief vs. knowledge.  Atheism is a lack of theistic belief.  Agnosticism, on the other hand, asserts that it lacks the knowledge or ability to know whether there are gods.

With belief, you either believe there are one or more gods, or you do not believe there are one or more gods.  With knowlege, you either know or do not know.  

Atheism and agnosticism aren't incompatible, they're side by side descriptors that are used together.

1. Someone is either a theist or an atheist.  Ie, they're religious or they aren't.
2. Someone is also either gnostic or agnostic.  Ie, they know that god exists or they don't know.

Technically, all of my christian friends are actually agnostic because while they _believe_ there is a god and they have _faith_, they still don't actually know.  They won't know until they die.  They, like many of you, believe themselves to be gnostic theists following the above definition.

A gnostic atheist is someone who will say "There ain't no god." and will meet the careful definition that some of you have been trying to herd me into without realizing there was an alternative.  An agnostic atheist, on the other hand, maintains a lack of belief that god exist.  That's me.

Before you clap your hands in delight and say "ah ha!  A chink in Chairboy's armor, we've changed him to an agnostic!", recognize that Webster's definition is overly simplistic.  An agnostic is a type of theist, and there are actually 4 states possible from the combination.  

I hope this clarifies things!

Clarifies things?  Hmmmmm..........

Now you are going to argue with the dictionary?

Come on.  

You have put forth a lot of information here.  

Where does it all come from?

Wanna back it up with a source?

Or is the above just your opinion?

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by lazs2

Agnostic is understandable.   Athiest is very much faith based.  Why would you even care?   What would be wrong with just answering that you didn't know when asked about a belief in god?  You can't possibly know can you?

Agnostics don't know one way or the other.
For Atheists to say "I don't know." would make them Agnostic.
My Atheism is based on the possibility of a God/Supreme Being not being proven. Keep in mind scientists have been trying to prove the existance of God/Supreme Being since organised religions have been made official doctrine.... yet the proof is still lacking. The moment it becomes proven/fact, is  when it loses the faith label.

Originally posted by lazs2
saying "I am an athiest" is simply saying that you have an agenda.   How else do you base such a belief except on faith?   In my short lifetime I have never met an athiest who didn't strongly dislike religious people.   Why is that?

Perhaps you'd like to point out the Atheists here that strongly dislike religious people.

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by Arlo
You mean this thread and all the other ones Chairboy's started that are essentially looking for responses regarding how bad Christians are and how good Atheists are ... are figments? Hmmmmm ... now that's rather philosophically interesting.

Since you've stated "threads" and I am apart of some, care to point out where I, an Atheist, say anyone of religion is bad?
Or that all Atheists are good?

As a matter of fact, isn't your generalizing here the same thing you accuse Chairboy of?

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by Arlo
Believing without a doubt that there isn't a creator is every bit as much a leap of faith as believing without a doubt there is one. Perhaps the doubting Thomases are the only true non-believers.

Agnostics don't have an apinion either way for they can't be sure to their satisfaction. They usually admit that if there is a God, there doesn't appear to be proof. If there were the proof they agreed on, that would make them a religious believer.
They can't say there isn't a God for they don't buy all the scientific "facts" as conclusive and they leave open the possibility of there being a God. If they truly didn't believe in a God existing, that would make them an Atheist.

Agnostics are the fence sitters of the maybe, maybe not. They don't truly "non-believe", that title goes to the Atheists.

I won't speak for others but myself. I refuse to believe something just because someone says so, especially if it defies logic (in my mind, of course).
If someone says God exists, I want proof.
Keep in mind (this bears repeating), I am in no way questioning anyone's faith in their religious beliefs. I find that religion is very important for those that believe to get through some very tough times. I have seen first hand how religion helps those that want and need it.

[Jackal1]

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Simaril
Does that mean that current Christianity is wrong, departed from its roots? Not at all...because Gnosticism was considered a competing religion, separate from christianity, by the people who lived back then.

and your source of information is what?  Its clear there was oodles of 'revisionism' going on in early christianity through to the third century. So whats really right? Most of the 'gnosticism was wrong' arguments I see are based on assuming the anti-gnostic sources are correct.

Originally posted by lazs
saying "I am an athiest" is simply saying that you have an agenda. How else do you base such a belief except on faith? In my short lifetime I have never met an athiest who didn't strongly dislike religious people. Why is that?

Actually lazs, I get on really well with religious people. And so do many atheists I know. I even had a religious wedding, with the top religious leader of a country (popn ~ 15 million I think) perform the ceremony. I go quite regularly with my wife to a religious temple. And the crazy thing is... the monks beliefs there don't clash with mine! and the monks teachings are something I'd happily follow! and I don't even have to believe theres a god to follow their beliefs and be part of their religion! in fact I can even DENY there is a god and they think thats ok! they even have no problem with the theory of evolution! IMAGINE THAT!

My problem lazs, if you haven't guessed it, is with lying cheating double talking hypocritical christians who wear their religion like a back-stage-pass. Not all christians, just those, who unfortunately seem to make up a majority.

[Hap]

Vulcan, your quote by sim has gnosticism right.  as far as sources, any credible encyclopedia such as britannica will give one a fair start.

Henry Chadwick's "The Early Church" can be picked up cheaply and is good as well.

[lazs2]

vulcan... fair enough... I dislike lying cheating hypocrits too but feel no need to lump them all together under a religion...  I believe that their various religions do not promote that behavior?

This is just silly...  There can be no proof whatsoever that god or gods do not exist... the proof that he does is pretty sparce too...

I am not a christian or a religious person.  I believe a god exists.. it is a personal belief and I can offer no proof and it affects only me.   I do not believe (but it is possible) that any religion has it exactly right.

I admit that all these things are personl belief based on personal experiance and have no proof.

I find it the height of hypocracy that there is even an athiesm... to say that you believe that there is no god even tho you have no proof because... believing in god is faith based and therefore wrong.... silly and pouty and probly just wrong headed based on either agenda or.... the natural human tendancy to rebel... somewhat twisted of course.

If you are an athiest then you have a faith based belief that there is no god... you have no proof you just "feel" it and you rationalize it by saying that a lack of faith in god means the same as the total faith that there is none.   Do you realize how dumb you look?

Now...  I am not a christian as I have said but... been on these boards for a while and I do indeed see a mean spirited athiesm... Chritstians and their beliefes are mocked here all the time.  threads are started and cartoons inserted into the threads..... very hip.

Being an athiest doesn't make you hip and smart... it makes you illogical and ignorant and easily persuaded to follow cults.

Agnostic is a logical and scientific way of looking at the whole thing.

lazs

[lazs2]

And vulcan... it is easy to see that many religious teachings are some of the best and most noble of all philosophy.... I think that the ten comandments in the courthouse loby is a worthy statue...  Even tho I am agnostic on the whole story of what they are and all...

To say that you can live by the teachings of the monks and not believe that humans are guided to the good by a higher power seems strange to me...  to think that you can come up with the strength to get through some of the things that this life will throw at you without some help from said power seems odd to me also.  It seems so self centered and egotistical... at odds with being a good human.

My personal beliefe is based on the fact that no matter how tough people think I am....  I could not have gotten through a few of the things I did on my own.   I freely admit that other explanations may exist for the things that I have felt and the reserves of strength I do not posses but I choose to believe in a god in my life.

like you... I can bow my head and respect religious cerimony that I might not believe in but... while doing so.... I am at least in touch with my god.  I can relate to agnostics as I was one for many years (but to be hip rebelious I claimed athiesm)....  I have no respect for athiests.  Their very belief is a hypocracy that I can not ignore.

lazs

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by lazs2
I have no respect for athiests.  Their very belief is a hypocracy that I can not ignore.

You still haven't identified why you feel it's a hypocracy.  You just keep repeating that it's "wrong headed".  Can you clarify where the hypocracy is?

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by SaburoS
Agnostics don't know one way or the other.
For Atheists to say "I don't know." would make them Agnostic.
My Atheism is based on the possibility of a God/Supreme Being not being proven.

You've based your belief system on something that is not proven?  

That is  the essence of faith.

[Hap]

Originally posted by lazs2

I find it the height of hypocracy that there is even an athiesm... to say that you believe that there is no god even tho you have no proof because... believing in god is faith based and therefore wrong

hap

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Chairboy
You still haven't identified why you feel it's a hypocracy.  You just keep repeating that it's "wrong headed".  Can you clarify where the hypocracy is?

LMAO he said it a dozen times.

People who believe in a deity do it with no proof.= take it on faith
People who don't believe  do so also with no proof.= take it on faith

You can't prove there is or isn't a deity.

So the when either side calls the other names for their beliefs ....  Hypocrisy flag is thrown.



Bronk

[Toad]

This just in from the Schoolmarm at Little House on the Prairie:

hy·poc·ri[/u]·sy

(hĭ-pŏk'rĭ-sç)

n., pl. -sies.

The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

An act or instance of such falseness.

[midnight Target]

What I believe.....


I believe in rainbows, and puppy dogs and fairy tales. And I believe in the family: Mom, and Dad, and Grandma, and Uncle Todd, who waves his noodle.

And I believe in 8 of the Ten Commandments, and I believe in going to church every Sunday, unless there's a game on.

And I believe that sex is one of the most beautiful, wholesome, and natural things that money can buy.

And I believe it's derogatory to refer to a woman's breasts as "boobs", "jugs", "winnebagos", or "golden bozos". And you should only refer to them as "hooters".

And I believe you should place a woman on a pedestal, high enough so you can look up her dress.

And I believe in equality, equality for everyone, no matter how stupid they are, or how much better I am than they are.

And people say I'm crazy for believing this, but I believe that robots are stealing my luggage.

And I believe I made a mistake when I bought a 30-story, one-bedroom apartment.

And I believe that the "Battle of the Network Stars" should be fought with guns.

And I believe that Ronald Reagan can make this country what it once was: an arctic region, covered with ice.

And I believe the United States should accept all foreigners in this country, provided they can speak our native language: Apache.

And lastly, I believe that of all the evils on this earth, there is nothing worse than the music you are listening to right now.

(Steve Martin)