<S> FSO squads

[332nd outlaw]

Originally posted by SLED
Well Doobs, I don't know if you are THE voice of reason.

But I agree with all you said in the rest of the post.

TY




Remember folks, we (the CM team) are people with faults just like anyone else (plainly obvious). Nobody on the CM team claims to but perfect, and we are going to mess up. constructive feed back is always a help, and I know I always read the constructive comments. We may not always take and use every idea that comes along, but we listen to all, and try to use your collective comments to better FSO (and other events).

However, complaints without a solution, and threats of leaving FSO, although troubling, are of little help. We don't want anyone to leave FSO because they had a bad time at an event. But you have to admit we (CM team) can't run around trying to fix things just because someone says they are going to leave. I am sure anyone can see the danger in that. We do want people to stick with us through  the good and the bad and try to help us make FSO what most people want it to be.

Fun for all, something people want to attend.

We have tried some new things in the last few months. Some of you haven't liked it, and that's OK. I can guarantee all of you that the things that have been tried have been in an effort to bring some new fun to the FSO community. Some of it might work, and some...... well..... Hey we tried.

Post your comments, try to be understanding about what we are doing, we want to hear what you have to say about an event. We aren't going to do everything that everyone of you suggest, that would be madness. but we are going to read those thoughts, and they are going to be considered.

Don't threaten to leave, that is absolutely useless, and is of no value except to tell us someone is pissed. If you really care about FSO you would be more interested in staying and helping to make FSO better.


We have a lot of new people on the CM team, we are working on it, this isn't easy, give us time we'll figure it out.

 nobody thanks other wise sled. but thier are those that believe that the Cm team is blowing them off when things like this keep happening over and over again. you call them experiments trying new things. well i have no problem with that but when the new thing is a old thing in the MA without any way one could argue that it would of been done in the real world. like i said in my first post 38's off carriers could be argued either way but other asspects of this setup would not even had been considerd or if had been would of been a quick demotion in the real world. i also have a problem with your statement that you read every constructive comments. not everyone is skilled in the the art of properly comunicating thier feelings.   if you truly want to know what the communitty is thinking you got to read the nonconstructive ones too. it's a way to get a feel for just how frustrated the communitty is. not all people that post this type of comment is pissed they just not sure how to word it so that you get the level of frustration they are having therefor a post thats comes off as one of being pissed is one of comunicating what they are frustrated over even if they have no idea on how to fix it. after all if we could all do the CM job then there would be no shortage of new ops in the works. after all if HTC didn't pay attition to this side of the feedback channel he wouldn't be to conserend with most the threads on the current changes of the MA.

 i also wonder where you see threats of leaveing i looked back in this thread and the only comments about people leaveing are from CO.s of squads. trust me these are not threats. people are feed up well past the point of being pissed. the co's well i know atleast the CO of the squad i fly with have been dealing with these rumblings for sometime now. it is to the point to where i know myself have a true feeling that someone wants more the prestige of being a FSO CM then the responsability that comes with it.
noone thinks that the job of being a FSO CM is easy. we know that the headachs that come with it are massive but this last frame was to the point to where to give a person the thought that someone sat down threw it togther at the last minute just to have one to fly.

anyway i can tell you from my pooint of view what i am frustrated with most is two fold.

first and formost is the tottal lack of realism that has been coming threw not only in this frame but in severl asspects of the OPs that have been coming down the pike.

second is what i precieve is the failure on the part of the CM team to listen to others that have knowledge in what they are doing and thus ending up with fiasco's like those that have been happening.


edit" ya i know my grammer and spelling are bad.

[daddog]

Remember folks, we (the CM team) are people with faults just like anyone else (plainly obvious).

Ya, but your never supposed to admit it Sled.

edit" ya i know my grammer and spelling are bad.

Ya, but you made a good point outlaw. Besides I can't poke fun at anyones spelling. Not without Nifty, or Wklink getting on my back.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by SLED
(excellent sig. BTW)

Thanks, It was Eisenhower...

[scottydawg]

Originally posted by Kurt
Sled,
I don't think anyone think's its easy...

But the reason we fly FSO is to get the realism we can't get in Main.

Sometimes realism means you fly for 2 hours and never see a bandit.  Sometimes realism means you get shot down fast.

Sometimes realism means that you are outnumbered and flying inferior planes.

Realism HURTS!

We want that.  

Getting killed because someone wanted to tweak history isn't fun.... But getting killled because someone modeled history is BIG FUN.

Don't let anyone tinker with the fundamental history... If it was slow sucky planes at the real fight, then thats what we want to fly.

We want to feel it, smell it, suffer it.  We want to be there.  More or less as it was.

We don't want hot rides, quick fights, and guaranteed victory... We want to be challenged.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  I concur.

The primary gripe I have with the last FSO (besides the whole P38 off carriers thing) was the immediate nature of the furballing.  No time to form up, no time to wing up and no time to set up any kind of tactics.

As well, for some (a lot?) of the squad members that participate in the FSO (some exclusively), it is partly a social and 'steam-letting-off' experience where we goof about while forming up and getting ready for the encounter. Some may see it as boring, but I think it lends very much to squad bonding, comraderie and the perception of 'belonging'.  When you up and immediately fly into a furball, that portion of the experience no longer exists. Furballing like that can be done any night of the week in the MA's, the only difference being the planesets.

I'd like to see more FSOs that are geared towards fair fights (yes that means balancing sides/planesets), realism, and clearer objectives, without leaning towards instant action.   That's what snapshots are for, right?

I want to also say that this is in no way meant to be a slam on anyone, and also that I truly appreciate all the effort and time that the CM staff puts into the events. One day I hope to be there with you, taking the same crap I'm dishing out now.

[Ghosth]

Sled sir, no one knows any better than myself just how hard it is to run a Squad Ops frame.  Frankly I don't see this as a problem with how the frame was run. But as a major deficiency in how the frame was planned.

All anyone has to do is go back & look at any of the many Squad ops setups that daddog has written. I've yet to see one that was not inherantly fair, well setup, and as a result, easy to run. Most were incredibly popular, and helped bring FSO to the event that it is today.

Anytime you have people taking off less than 25 miles away from the enemy you should be hearing alarm bells & seeing red flags go up. Like it or not someone is going to end up being unhappy. Same is true for planes rolling from carriers that could not and did not do so.

If this is truly representative of the current state of FSO, then the entire CM corp needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Redefine what their goals are, and make sure that each and every frame is setup so both sides have an equal opportunity to do well. Anything less is simplly not a level playing field, and anyone promoting anything other than that does not have the good of the community at heart.

Granted I have been away for the last few months so I don't know whats been going on. But I'm hearing an awefull lot of rumbling in the background. And thats never a good sign, ever.

Without at least a somewhat level playing field. And a bit of time to get in the air & get organized FSO is no better than a main arena furball.  FSO used to be the best flying you could get in AH, I'd hate to think that is no longer the case.

And don't misunderstand me please. I have no axe to grind, I'm not looking to do a hatchet job on any individual or group of CM's. I KNOW the job, and all its headaches. I also know that sometimes a group can get emmmm, off course lets say. And sometimes it takes other people saying something to point it out.

At the end of it all what we all want is an active and  interesting FSO. One thats fair for everyone playing. In my opinion the last frame never should have left the drawing board, it had problems, lots of them. If I can expect more of the same in the next frame frankly I doubt I'll fly it. Its simply not worth the agrivation. While I'll admit that the changes in the Main sparked my return, it was the Fri night squad ops that I really missed.

To come back after some months of being away to this last frame, well it was a severe let down at best.

[doobs]

Hit the brakes and walk away.

FSO rocks always has always will, ya gotta tinker if ya want to improve.

Trial and error

Lets all re-remember this is all volunteer time

lets try and maintain



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comon guys don't drag it down, a few and original comments are needed
to help the FSO, not an Congressional hearing.


FSO:aok

[332nd outlaw]

Originally posted by 68KO
beep beep

you'll notice if you rally take the time to read the post that this has gone past the 332nd but as i have already pointed out it is more then apperant that the current CM team has no desire to even listen to what others have to think.

this was really apperant in the op downfall when the co's had problems with the set up and where blown off till they saw that there wasn't even going to be a frame 2 unless things changed but hey if the fact that there used to 250 or so players in FSO and is now lucky to pull 200 doesn't open your eyes to the the fact that something is wrong then your not blind but just pruposely ingnoring the facts.

now you can right this off as one groups whine if you want but it will be your mistake. we have been flying HTC flight sims scince the beta of WB but hey what the hell we don't know anything. now i tried to be diplomatic in my speaking of my thoughts but if you want to insist that your right and we are wrong then you have done but put the final nail in FSO and all events for me.

[Nefarious]

Originally posted by doobs
Hit the brakes and walk away.

Good Advice Doobs.

[skernsk]

Originally posted by 68KO
beep beep

wow, I don't really know where to begin here KO.  I read a few names besides 332nd in this thread.  I also know of a couple of CM's (besides forHIM) who were not too happy.  

You going to talk to them like that?  I have been playing this game for 5 freaking years, longer than you.  I know what this event is about and have run FSO as a CM on two occasions.

In other words I am qualified to comment on it and know what I am talking about.  You sir, are a CM, and have been for a while.  You may be trained but like many of your CM's you either forgot what daddog told you or CHOSE to ignore it.

That is why you are reading these complaints.  That is why Nef read them after frame 3 of Downfall.  Get it right or get the hell outta the game man.  There is that simple enough .. you don't want to hear me complain, then don't give me a reason.

And if you will read my previous posts 68KO you will see how I was not imflamatory, and in fact even mentioned that some of your MISTAKES did not really bother me.  

What I am upset about is your last post, it is not what you would expect from a CM ... but then again neither was Frame 1, so I guess two wrongs don't make a right.

Hell maybe you are right, maybe it is just me.  Count me out of FSO.

[doobs]

OK hit the Parking Brake too.

This will not solve anything, this will only tear FSO down.


Like listening to my mommy and daddy argue right before there divorce 25 years ago.

Don't make me start stealing Cars again for attention.

[Nefarious]

Originally posted by doobs
Don't make me start stealing Cars again for attention.

That may be a good thing at this point. Hell I'll join ya...SHOTGUN!

[doobs]

Originally posted by Nefarious
That may be a good thing at this point. Hell I'll join ya...SHOTGUN!

You can only join me if you meet one of the criteria.

1. Ya know how to do it
2. Ya got drugs or alcohol(both prefered)
3. Ya got hot women with ya


otherwise I Steal Alone YEAH all by myself, I prefer to Steal alone with nobody else.

Alittle George there

One Boubon , one scotch, and one FSO.

[Kurt]

Ghost, I felt exactly the same.  I've been out of FSO since February and had built my squad (mostly new guys) up on what it was...

It wasn't.

I felt kinda bad having to tell them 'Thats not what its normally like, lets just work through the frames and hopefully the next one will be better.'

[doobs]

Nef I need a hug

[Kurt]

Originally posted by doobs
this will only tear FSO down.  Like listening to my mommy and daddy argue right before there divorce 25 years ago.

I didn't realize the problems with FSO went back that far...