Author Topic: Banning cluster munitions. (Read 4758 times)

Nilsen · « **Reply #105 on:** November 21, 2006, 12:02:45 AM »

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Originally posted by Vulcan
Yeah, when someone has to tweak the stats to suit their point of view doesn't that cast some doubt with you?

Can you show me the link that proves this is false and then show me the real number?

Billy Joe Bob · « **Reply #106 on:** November 21, 2006, 12:40:08 AM »

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Originally posted by red26
This is the way I look at it and yes its cold hearted but , If a country attacks or starts trouble and we have to bring our troops that many miles to fight then what ever happens to that country's people after we move out happens. The other country should have never messed or pi$@ed us off. And the rest is just war people get killed long after its over thats just the way it is.

Hey how about we use the old BEE HIVE rounds like my father taked about?A Artty round with a bunch of sharp dart like things in it insted of cluster? I dont think that would be any safe'er at all.

BEEHIVE: An anti-personnel, direct-fire shell carrying several thousand small steel darts or 'fleshettes'. Each fleshette is about one inch long and has the appearance of a 1" finishing nail with the nailhead stamped into the form of 4 fins, similar to an arrow. A typical 105mm BEEHIVE has 6000 darts, 3000 of which are loaded pointing forward, 3000 pointing backward. The shell is fired directly at advancing enemy formations similar to an aimed shotgun. At about 50 meters from the muzzle, the round ejects the darts toward the enemy with a medium hard ejecting charge. The forward loaded darts spread into a 45 degree fan traveling forward, while the rear facing darts are forced by their fins to flip around in flight. As the darts flip, they loop away from the GT line, forming a fan of about 60 degrees. Thus 6000 darts fly in a 60 degree fan at about 2000 feet per second toward the enemy. The effect on troops in the open is devastating. Enemy troops about 100 meters from the firing cannon may be pierced by 10-20 darts, those closer may receive 100 or more penetrating stab wounds similar to those inflicted by an icepick.

Its amazing how humans invent things that can cause so many deaths at once.

Excel1 · « **Reply #107 on:** November 21, 2006, 02:48:23 AM »

I'll wager the grunts hunkering down in their bunkers at a firebase in Vietnam that was about to be swamped by hoards of attacking NVA weren’t overly concerned about the morality of the impending mass shredding when the arty gunners lowered their barrels and let rip at point blank with fleshette rounds... just had to remember to keep their heads down.

Take away the modern dumb conventional weapons like cluster munitions that help to give the ability to win a relatively quick and decisive victory on the battlefield and you run the risk of changing the way modern wars are fought, and it would probably be for the worse. It wasn't too many years ago when about the only way to defeat an enemy and their ability to wage war was to pretty much destroy their country, which caused massive civilian casualties. The negative aspects of cluster munitions, WP or any other modern conventional weapon used on the battlefield in modern conflicts pales in comparison.

Vulcan · « **Reply #108 on:** November 21, 2006, 03:09:56 AM »

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Originally posted by Nilsen
Can you show me the link that proves this is false and then show me the real number?

Are you saying no North Vietnamese military died to cluster munitions during the vietnam war? Not even a single one?

red26 · « **Reply #109 on:** November 21, 2006, 06:16:56 AM »

BEEHIVE

I talked to my father last night and he said that he would rather use cluster weppons any day the use the BEEHIVE rounds. He tould me a story over the phone about when he was on the DMZ and there was a lightning storm going on he said that he rememberd that the lightning flashed and there was nouthing out there. Then it flashed about 10min's later and the wole area was full of VC. He said that he rememberd firing his 60 cal. until the barrel was red hot then putting anouther barrel on it just to do the same thing to that one. He said that he herd a order from the fire base he was at to get down as close to the ground as they could because the artty was going to let off a couple of these things. Well he said that he didnt here any US weppons for a little wile then all the sudden he herd the massive sound of the artty and right after that he herd the sound of the BEEHIVE round as it poped open and he said that the sound of the darts made the same sound as it says like millons of bee's flying around. he said they must have fired around 50 or 60 rounds of that. Then he went back to fighting agin. He did say that the fighting wassnt as massive as before after that. He went on to say that the next morning when it was light enough to see across the DMZ they went out to do a intel check. He said if there was a tree there before it wasnt there after the BEEHIVE rounds got done.

My father served 3 yrs with the 3rd Marines 3rd Force Recon from 67 to 69

Nilsen · « **Reply #110 on:** November 21, 2006, 06:58:27 AM »

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Originally posted by Vulcan
Are you saying no North Vietnamese military died to cluster munitions during the vietnam war? Not even a single one?

No, I have not said that.

I am asking you to show me a link to the correct number, or any other number. I have not done the 98% calculations myself but even if it sounds like alot then im not so sure its that wrong. Im sure landmines produce comparable number of civilian vs military casualties... atleast after ww2. Military forces are often equipped and trained to clear or avoid minefields (witch is the point of them in the first place... slowing or halting advances). Civilians do not have this advantage and keeps on stepping on them decades later.

Nilsen · « **Reply #111 on:** November 21, 2006, 07:03:42 AM »

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Originally posted by Excel1
The negative aspects of cluster munitions, WP or any other modern conventional weapon used on the battlefield in modern conflicts pales in comparison.

Well. If you see it like that then city busting is also legitemate as it pales in comparison to using nukes or chemical weapons. Many things pales in comparison to the worst or best scenario.

The point of evolving as a race is to constantly strive to do the best you can, not only abit better than before when there are superior options available. Not everyone aims for mediocracy.

Nilsen · « **Reply #112 on:** November 21, 2006, 07:06:37 AM »

"A cluster bomb is a small explosive submunition or bomblet that is delivered to its target in a large canister or shell.

Cluster bombs are indiscriminate. They cannot distinguish between civilian and military targets. Their wide-area coverage and poor targeting mechanisms nearly guarantee that unintended victims will die or be injured, even when the weapons function as designed.

Cluster munitions continue to kill long after a war ends because these weapons often fail to explode on contact as designed."

http://www.mcc.org/clusterbombs/

soda72 · « **Reply #113 on:** November 21, 2006, 07:08:26 AM »

I'm for making more cluster bombs.

Nilsen · « **Reply #114 on:** November 21, 2006, 07:16:02 AM »

Its the weapon that keeps on giving.. they are uber cool

lazs2 · « **Reply #115 on:** November 21, 2006, 08:44:56 AM »

I guess making them look like little furbie dolls was a little over the top.

lazs

Nilsen · « **Reply #116 on:** November 21, 2006, 08:52:00 AM »

Could you atleast put an "eject" or "press here" button on the the bomblets so folks who find them can remove the energy within them?

Civilian numbnut: "hmm.. this sais "eject".. lemme try...

*bang* WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeee e

Maverick · « **Reply #117 on:** November 21, 2006, 12:53:39 PM »

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Originally posted by Nilsen
"A cluster bomb is a small explosive submunition or bomblet that is delivered to its target in a large canister or shell.

Cluster bombs are indiscriminate. They cannot distinguish between civilian and military targets. Their wide-area coverage and poor targeting mechanisms nearly guarantee that unintended victims will die or be injured, even when the weapons function as designed.

Cluster munitions continue to kill long after a war ends because these weapons often fail to explode on contact as designed."

http://www.mcc.org/clusterbombs/

Just a point of fact here. ALL weapons are indiscriminate when it comes to doing damage to either civilian or military targets. The only discriminating factor is the one who launches it and the force it is launched against. If one side uses civilians as human shields they are responsible for the results as well.

Nilsen · « **Reply #118 on:** November 21, 2006, 01:11:14 PM »

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Originally posted by Maverick
Just a point of fact here. ALL weapons are indiscriminate when it comes to doing damage to either civilian or military targets. The only discriminating factor is the one who launches it and the force it is launched against. If one side uses civilians as human shields they are responsible for the results as well.

Yes and no.

All those undetonated bomblets that once were aimed at an enemy but now lie on or in the ground can blow up when anyone picks it up.... that is what they mean by indiscriminate. No different from a land mine. So the only discrimenating factor is not _who_ launches it or what it is launched at, but who may pick it up at some point in time.

Squire · « **Reply #119 on:** November 21, 2006, 01:12:29 PM »

Banning them? no, beacuse they are a usefull anti armor and anti personnel weapons. That doesn't mean you cant have sensible guidelines on their use in conflicts other than all out war, which is my understanding exist already.

...and you would be just as dead as a civialin who got hit by an errant 1000lb GP bomb that missed by a few hundred yards, or a mortar shell.