Author Topic: Next time you meet a wealthy person, thank them... (Read 4164 times)

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #150 on:** December 26, 2006, 11:09:57 PM »

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Originally posted by Neubob
PS: The founders of this nation established a government.

I didn't say founders, I said revolutionaries. The ones who pushed and prodded for revolution. And when the time came, they kicked bellybutton (in time).

The founders are just as culpable, as awe-inspiring as you may think they are.

Neubob · « **Reply #151 on:** December 26, 2006, 11:20:26 PM »

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I didn't say founders, I said revolutionaries. The ones who pushed and prodded for revolution. And when the time came, they kicked bellybutton (in time).

The founders are just as culpable, as awe-inspiring as you may think they are.

Kicked bellybutton they may have... Managing a population of 300 million they never had to.

Show me ironclad proof that a significant group of people(a national population) can, deviod of any organization, maintain or improve over the current life expectancy, maintain or improve over the current levels of production, maintain or improve over the current average quality of life, maintain or improve over current crime rates and maintain or improve over current patterns of technological advancement, and I'll gladly agree that humanity does not need some sort of governing body.

We can then start to argue over whether this significant group of people, devoid of a governing body, will naturally gravitate towards organizing one to make the administration of their utopia more efficient.

And I'm not in awe of any government entity, past or present. I'm just realistic in accepting that for now, they are a better alternative to chaos.

Shamus · « **Reply #152 on:** December 26, 2006, 11:53:21 PM »

Somalia is a fair example of the type of government lasorsailor seems to be trumpeting

, power to the strongest.

shamus

storch · « **Reply #153 on:** December 27, 2006, 12:06:49 AM »

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Originally posted by Shamus
Somalia is a fair example of the type of government lasorsailor seems to be trumpeting , power to the strongest.

shamus

yet those very same type of folks are the ones whining the loudest for help when anything goes wrong.

lazs2 · « **Reply #154 on:** December 27, 2006, 08:45:57 AM »

newbob... I agree to a degree on what you have said.

I think that a limited government and constitutional republic with a strong bill of rights is about the most government any group would ever need. The founders were not wrong on this.

Taxes... way out of hand. If you want schools... if the country feels that it is a benifiet to all of us and worth extorting money from us all then... why take it a step further and let the government run and manage it? why not simply allow vouchers?

I think that taxes should be flat taxes and consumption taxes and exch tax should be an enterprise fund that is open to the public to audit at any time.

Taxes need to be raised to run the government and to keep a standing army and to fund the defence of the country. After that it gets a little fuzzy morally.

lazs

FastFwd · « **Reply #155 on:** December 27, 2006, 08:49:41 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
Taxes need to be raised to run the government and to keep a standing army and to fund the defence of the country.

How come some countries get by with no income tax at all?

Nilsen · « **Reply #156 on:** December 27, 2006, 08:58:19 AM »

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Originally posted by FastFwd
How come some countries get by with no income tax at all?

Because they have other income, other ways of taxing, or offer nothing to their population.

FastFwd · « **Reply #157 on:** December 27, 2006, 09:00:43 AM »

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Originally posted by Nilsen
Because they have other income, other ways of taxing, or offer nothing to their population.

Isn't tax very high in Norway? Does this mean you get a lot of things "free" that we have to pay for, like health care?

lazs2 · « **Reply #158 on:** December 27, 2006, 09:06:21 AM »

fastfwd... I didn't say it had to be an income tax.

lazs

storch · « **Reply #159 on:** December 27, 2006, 09:12:26 AM »

anyone who has travelled even a little bit, someone who has the benefit of of comparrison based on personal experience can see the advantages of our system over all others I've experienced. the United States of America is as good as it gets in every respect.

FastFwd · « **Reply #160 on:** December 27, 2006, 10:51:43 AM »

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Originally posted by storch
anyone who has travelled even a little bit, someone who has the benefit of of comparrison based on personal experience can see the advantages of our system over all others I've experienced. the United States of America is as good as it gets in every respect.

I've never been to Norway, but it seems like they're pretty well off. Waiting from someone from there to comment on this.

mietla · « **Reply #161 on:** December 27, 2006, 11:53:44 AM »

Sailor,

You are just being silly, very vocal, but silly. There is no question about the necessity of the government and the necessity to fund it. The subject of this discussion is

Some of us favor a very limited government (national defense, coinage, foreign policy and very few things more), funded equitably by all citizens. Flat tax comes to mind even though the rich still pay way more than poor under it. No one has a right to anything, you have to earn what you want.

Others favor much bigger and much more powerful government whose responsibilities include enforcing utopian "social justice" and making sure that no one rises above others. The ultimate goal is not equality before the law, but the equality of outcome. In this view people have a right to shelter, food, healthcare and whatever they want, even though they can't or choose not to earn it. Once you accept this view of the government, it is only natural that you expect it to be funded on a "can afford it" basis, with the expectation that the surplus produced by some, will be redistributed by the government and consumed by underachievers.

You can take your position anywhere between those two view points, but I don't think you'll find many supporters of your view that anarchy is better option.

vorticon · « **Reply #162 on:** December 27, 2006, 01:30:22 PM »

"Yes. I see the greatness in mankind, and recognize that it will never happen while goverments and religions are in power."

i to saw this governmentless greatness, it was hunting bison and wearing a leather loin cloth for the past 10 000 years...

no, scratch that. human nature puts someone in charge, you can see this on any elementary school playground.

history says your wrong.
human nature makes this inevitable.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #163 on:** December 27, 2006, 08:28:28 PM »

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No one has a right to anything, you have to earn what you want.

Wrong. You have the right to which you earn. What you get from your hard work is yours and yours alone. You may have to defend it, but it is your right.

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You can take your position anywhere between those two view points, but I don't think you'll find many supporters of your view that anarchy is better option.

Socialism is easily defined, but why do you defend it so?

Any person who believes that it is right to take anything from anybody without their choice to do so is a Socialist.

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There is no question about the necessity of the government and the necessity to fund it.

There is a question when the government immorally steals from the people. Until you've found a way around this, government will not be needed, ever.

mietla · « **Reply #164 on:** December 27, 2006, 09:14:57 PM »

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wrong. You have the right to which you earn. What you get from your hard work is yours and yours alone. You may have to defend it, but it is your right.

Yes, that is what I meant to say, but I was not clear. I do apologize. As you said. You have the right to create wealth and you have the right to keep it and/or dispose of it the way you wish.

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Socialism is easily defined, but why do you defend it so?
[/B]

This is funny. I was born under socialism, I grew up under it. After my kids were born I've decided that I had enough. I left this socialist sewer and emigrated to the US with two little kids, two suicases and debts. The most difficult decision of my life and the best decision of my life. I am eternally grateful to this country that it let me in.

And you are accusing me of defending the socialism? Funny. Black Death is a lesser evil.

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Any person who believes that it is right to take anything from anybody without their choice to do so is a Socialist.
[/B]

agreed, but I'm not one of those. I do not want any one's property, and I'd like to keep mine, thank you very much.

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
There is a question when the government immorally steals from the people. Until you've found a way around this, government will not be needed, ever. [/B]

now you are being naive again.