Tactics Question: F4U-1A with Spit XVI 400 back

[Simaril]

Last night during the nice running fight between Bish and Nits around ?40, I ended up in a bad situation, made a bad decision, and (not surprisingly) ended up dead. But as I've thought about it, I'm wondering what tactical suggestions others might have. And, no, I don'y have it on film.


So here's what happened. We were on the Baltic map, and the Nits were coming from A41 south across the water to the Bish-held A40. (I'm not sure if the base numbers...) There were roughly equal numbers, though in general the nits had more energy. I was fighting over the water, staying away from the ack, and ranging between 3K and the deck.

My F4U-1A had bagged 3, and was moving generally north at 1K and 250 mph or so. The only enemy threat in play was a spit XVI at my 10:30, on the deck, being chased by friendlies. My mistake was underestimating his E, and overestimating his attackers' commitment to their target....

...because as he passed 500m off my left wing, he pulled up, flipped over, and dropped onto my 6 at initial distance of 200. My countrymen saw jucier targets ahead of them, in the main furball, and gave up on the XVI. He quickly stabilized at an uncomfotable 400, I was flying generally towad my base, and there were some friendlies inbound with alt. IN the end, he was dead -- the only question was whether I'd be alive to see it!

I dove to the deck and tried to outlast him, which was the wrong decision. He landed a few sprayed pings, The distance stayed at 400 as my slower acceleration and need to jink at least gently kept my from outpacing him, over a max 2-3 minute chase. A friendly was dropping in to help out, but I took a PW and then hit the tower before he could clear me.
________

At first I thought I had enough E to keep me safe, and I hung on to that hope too long partly because I knew friendlies were inbound above me. I was afraid to pull up or break turn, since I figured he would cut across the curve to get the kill shot. I could have tried a barrel or lag roll, though with 400 separation there was a fair chance he'd get the snap shot.

Looking back, I think I should have tried a barrel roll with fairly hard initial break, and at the same time dropped gear and pumped flaps ASAP. It would have been a gamble, that the moves would be enough to "force" a missed snap shot and save my butt.


Any other thoughts from the gurus?

[SlapShot]

As I was reading I was thinking ... tight turn into a barrel or lag roll ... and slam the brakes on in the middle of the maneuver hoping for an overshoot.

I will always try something if being chased and cannot get separation ... I figure ... what the heck ... it just might work.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Simaril
Looking back, I think I should have tried a barrel roll with fairly hard initial break, and at the same time dropped gear and pumped flaps ASAP. It would have been a gamble, that the moves would be enough to "force" a missed snap shot and save my butt.  

Any time you have a spit 400 yards off your tail, you're probably a goner unless you're also in a spit (or similar plane).  That said, sudden deceleration only gets him to pass you by once, and THEN you're really stuck low, slow and dirty with an irritated spitfire over the top of you.

I wonder if it might not be more successful with a high-speed rolling scissors?

- oldman

[Lusche]

Im not A F4U guru, but I second the previous speakers. A Spit XVI at your six at a distance of only 400yds is a desperate situation. Which demands desperate maneuvers. Due to the high number of Spits around, chances are high that the Spit driver is not extremely skilled and might be caught by surprise. A good pilot can shoot you down easily wether you run or maneuver in this situation. But a bad pilot has a much harder time trying to follow your barrel / lag roll, scissors or whatever than just following you in your more or less straight run home.

[shooter1cac]

Again with the others..a spit 400 off your six is not a very advantageous position to be in. I think the best choice would have been try for the over shoot as well. Drop gear, flaps, chop the throttle and skid her in the loop to bleed the speed and hope for the snap shot. However if you missed....it woulda been ugly.

[BaldEagl]

I've never flown the F4U-1A but if it flys anything like the F4U-1C you really didn't have any advantages that you could exploit against a Spit XVI.  Other than a scissors defense to attempt an overshoot (unlikely) the only thing you could have hoped for was to get your wings out of phase with him then break when you've gained the largest possible advantage but that's effectively what you're doing (continuously) with a scissors.  Even that would have been temporary.

Hitting the brakes (slow down, drop flaps, possibly gear) might have worked if the Spit pilot wasn't experienced.  I got 2 kills that way one night trying to get a wounded F4F-4 home but those are tough little birds and I took a pounding doing it.  The third one finally got me.

If you're in that situation try anything and everything because you don't have anything more to lose.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Simaril
The only enemy threat in play was a spit XVI at my 10:30, on the deck, being chased by friendlies. My mistake was underestimating his E, and overestimating his attackers' commitment to their target....
...because as he passed 500m off my left wing

did you have comms with the friendlies chasing him? ie setup a strategy on how you all could have worked  it toward your favor?
SA ---> was you watching the spit16 the WHOLE way?

he pulled up, flipped over, and dropped onto my 6 at initial distance of 200.

so you watched him the WHOLE way, as he flew 500 meters off your left wing ( meaning counter was reading 500?  ( between 400 & 600? ) when the spit  pulled up, being this close is almost the same as a straight up intial merge from your view point, the spit was being chased, so he prob had dove to gain seperation from the chasers, you being 250, you prob could have went vertical with him on the merge and being slower beat him to the inside of the turn, since he was faster........BANG he is dead...... from your description and distances listed, seems the spit16 performed a perfect leadturn in the vertical on you......

My countrymen saw jucier targets ahead of them, in the main furball, and gave up on the XVI. He quickly stabilized at an uncomfotable 400,

as stated by others at this point, you should have executed a defensive barrel Roll/  big gamble from this point on..

I dove to the deck and tried to outlast him, which was the wrong decision. He landed a few sprayed pings, The distance stayed at 400 as my slower acceleration and need to jink at least gently kept my from outpacing him, over a max 2-3 minute chase.

watching the enemy in your 6 view, you only had 1k alt , said he was on the deck coming toward you, you diving to the deck gave up any potential alt you could have used..........from this point, I  would sugest making a few long sweeping turns left..........right.......... ..left..........not bleeding speed in doing so make them gentle,   then go HARD left turn ( make it look like a flat turn ) all the while watching the spit16 in rear view as you see him start to climb into a high yoyo, you roll toward him and keep turning but not flat , turning in to a hi yoyo type  turn yourself, then proceed into a vertical rolling scissors perhaps, you being in a Hog you will bleed E , slow down faster, he should shoot out infront above you, unless he is real good pile-it....... this just one idea,  being slow already, I doubt I would drop the Gear and kill off  any priceless amount of E I still had........the F4U will and can get slow enough with chop throttle/flaps/heavy Rudder use without using the gear.  ( directions on turns are just an example, opposite works just the same in general )

when you come into situations like these, keep in mind you have not lost until you are in the tower, tell yourself I am GOING TO WIN!!!!  and think in 3D, geometery!!!!!  offset the turns so they overlap play the angles!!! when you flying against a good turning plane


1 has not lost until someone has lost ability to control the flight of their plane!!!  try anything you can think of,   but from the stablized 400 distance point on, is a very difficult starting point to begin to do something......

[Sweet2th]

Originally posted by SlapShot
As I was reading I was thinking ... tight turn into a barrel or lag roll ... and slam the brakes on in the middle of the maneuver hoping for an overshoot.

Thats exactly what i would do except at the top of the roll the gear would have been deployed.When the new Corsair's came out i completely reconfigured my joystick so the gear tab was on the stick for that purpose alone.

Gear out and 1/2 throttle at the top works everytime.

[Spatula]

Originally posted by Simaril
as he passed 500m off my left wing, he pulled up, flipped over, and dropped onto my 6

IMO theres your mistake right there? you left him 500m gap between you which he used to lead-turn you. plain and simple. Don't leave the gap if you going to get that close to him. No gap left, no space to lead turn. No angles given away unnecessarily.

However without the film its hard to say exactly, this is my interpretation of the situation you describe.

[Traveler]

I would not have remained at 1000 feet and 250mph, I would have traded some of that speed for a nice climb to gather more "E".  I would have made note of the nme spit as my primary threat and either put angles on him or extended and put distance.  From what I read your SA was behind the curve and you sat there fat dumb and happy while he maneuvered to your six.  I take it you were not working with a wingman, so you have the primary responsibility for SA.  I think it's just a case of poor SA and being caught low and slow by a faster aircraft that was in the right spot at the right time.

[bozon]

I'm no guru, but this is my usual situation with the jug facing La7, spit 16s and most of the plane set. The idea is to take the fight to where the plane doesn't matter and it's much more about pilot skill.

First priority - get your speed up. This is not to pull away from it (because it will take too much time as you tried), but it negates any turning advantage. All planes pull 6G at high speed. High speed = more lead required to hit. It also means that he can't pull much lead to shoot without blacking out. Defensive moves on the other hand suffer less from the occasional black out. A short 0G dive is all you need.

Second priority - complicate the situation. Make it an un-defined situation for him - not a 6 chase and not pure BnZ. One way to do it is to start with a non horizontal break turn and immediate non-180 reversal. Make it a 3D fight with weird angles. If he goes for the knife fight a rolling scissors is a good move that very few handle right and plane type has less significance. If he goes for a high yo-yo or pulls up - level wings, shallow dive to regain your speed and pull some distance while he slows. I'm always amazed how many pull too high and allow you to open enough separation to turn and face them.

You still have to beat them from a disadvantage or disengage after that, but the odds are better.

[humble]

As many have stated the "pilot stuff" manual doesnt cover this one. The simple truth is that you have no clear cut simple answer. That being said i've survived this scenario numerous times (and probably posted a few of them). Here is my general train of thought. While it is specific to the hog (which I'm reasonably compentent in) it is more broadly applicable.

1) your survival here is completely up to the other guy, he has to "screw the pooch" for you to win. So the 1st thing to realize that by doing nothing that can only happen if he manages to run into you. There for....

a) what can you change, he's stable at 400 so you have no closure to work with. You cant out accelerate or outclimb him and you cant really out turn him....

so.....

what fight can you win....

only answer I see is a rolling scissors. How do we go from dead to a "snowballs chance". 1st you need to do the only thing you can SLOW DOWN. He simply cant do that as well as you can. 2nd you need to get a single flat scissor going to get him out of sync. I'd pull up very quickly then chop and push the nose down hard literally to the water and break into a hard left hander with 3 notchs of flap, pulling to that little "circle" for about 1/3 of a circle. I'm betting the whole stack he's looking for the shot. At that 1/3 mark I'm pulling back flat but imedialtely converting to a climbing full flap reversal looking to move right into a rolling scissor. I can tell you flat out that if the spit followed me thru the left hander he has the crossing shot on a platter...but IF he misses or only wings me he than has an impossible time dealing with a 130 mph full flapped hog in the rolling scissor....

Best I can do....will look for a clip

[Widewing]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
so you watched him the WHOLE way, as he flew 500 meters off your left wing ( meaning counter was reading 500?  ( between 400 & 600? ) when the spit  pulled up, being this close is almost the same as a straight up intial merge from your view point, the spit was being chased, so he prob had dove to gain seperation from the chasers, you being 250, you prob could have went vertical with him on the merge and being slower beat him to the inside of the turn, since he was faster........BANG he is dead...... from your description and distances listed, seems the spit16 performed a perfect leadturn in the vertical on you......

If I may elaborate a bit on TC's comment...

500 yards offset is a merge. You must treat it like a merge. Never let the enemy get behind your 3/9 line unmolested.

While the Spit16 is a very able fighter, most of the guys flying it aren't as capable as their aircraft. Even against the best, the F4U-1A can win the reverse off the merge. Against the average MA denizen, it's a gimme.

I would have angled in immediately to try and catch the Spit with a front-quarter shot before he passed. If I missed, I'd still beat him on the reverse and pound him for his trouble.

Come to the TA tonight (Wednesday) after 9 PM eastern, grab a Spit16 and I'll take an F4U-1A and show you how to steal the Spit's socks without first removing the shoes. Just understand that the Spit16 is better in the vertical, so you want to kill him before your degrading E state allows him that advantage.

My regards,

Widewing

[Vudak]

I haven't flown the Corsairs since they were remodelled...  Were there any major changes to the flight model?

If not, I'd go for broke with the barrel roll guns defense as some have said...  Might drop the gears or might not...  Having only 1k to work with, I may not have.

[Saxman]

Vudak: Not major changes, that I can see. However the 1A really hauls in a dive and is as fast as and an even better turner than the -1 (combined with the acceleration and power of the 1D).

I hate taking front-quarter shots against Spits. The Merlin on the Spit seems near to bulletproof, while the Hog's R2800 inevitably dies with one ping.

Anyway, don't know if this would help, but I'd have probably done one of two things:

1. First, turn into him before he could roll over me. However instead of a straight merge I'd go nose-low and offset to one side to try and grab some E and cheat him of an easy nose-on shot.

After the merge I pull vertical as if in an Immelmann, but as soon as we passed each other I'd pick him up and roll to keep him at the top of my canopy for the duration of the maneuver. If he tries a flat turn to reverse I can generally drop in behind most guys for a shot: Just hold back-stick and keep rolling so he's centered at the top of your up views. Use a little rudder to whip the nose around. Doesn't take a lot of fire in convergence to relieve a Spit of his wings. If I can't get around fast enough for a shot, I may at least be able to at least gain enough separation by forcing him to go vertical to negate his initial E advantage and dive out with full power and WEP.

Alternately, if he goes vertical too you'll be in a vertical scissors from this point. If you're at the right speed you may be able to come over the top first in time for a snapshot at his cockpit.

2. The other thing I might do is, as suggested, is turn slightly away to open the distance between us and start grabbing altitude before he gets to where he can roll over the top of me. The Corsair can also maintain about a 2500fpm climbing spiral to the left for QUITE some time without bleeding a lot of airspeed (on at least a couple occasions I've hung out Ki-84s doing this. They may not quite climb like a Spixteen, but have enough of a climb advantage over the early Hogs it may be work there, as well).

I've never tried this against a Spixteen, (I DID pull this off against a Seafire that had been chasing me when I was RTB the other night) but you might be able to keep just enough separation (vertical and horizontal) to keep him from getting a shot until help arrives. Alternately, you may bleed him of E and make him stall out, or he may decide to break off, giving you an opportunity to drop on him by tightening your roll and kicking inside rudder.

However since you were already in his killing range, you may not have had enough room to start with for this.

Anyone have thoughts on this? *Looks at Widewing*

Never underestimate the Corsair's flaps at mid to low speeds. Adding one or two notches at the right time can haul that big nose around almost instantly, and I'm sure I've surprised more than a few Spit drivers thinking they were about to get angles on me when all the sudden their wing popped off.