What a highly enlightening thread, and for once I find myself in Lazs's park, and smiling (not agreeing on the fighter quote though).
Scholzie, we have been debating about the point when it's time to step down, - surrender. While the words have been getting big, we still don't disagree that much. And yet we do. Ok, on to the job. This one:
"How little you know. It takes time for a nation to decide on such grave matters as surrender. On August 9, 1945 three days after, and as a direct result of, the bombing of Hiroshima the Japanese leadership gathered in Tokyo to re-discuss the American peace proposal known as the Potsdam Declaration. During the meeting news came that the Americans has also destroyed Nagasaki. That same evening the Japanese decided to accept the American terms of surrender."
As little as I know, and out of memory, The Japanese military council met after Hiroshima and decided to carry on, after Nagasaki (well, this happened within days) it was a council draw whether to carry on or not, the emperor stepping in and taking the desicion, - for his people.
The military command was being...stupid...because the war was absolutely lost for the Japanese. They might have had some chance of a deal (which BTW was nowhere in the charts) before IWO and Okinawa. Iwo was Japanes soil, and so was Okinawa. After almost 4 years of war, would you think the Americans would leave the Japanese business unfinished? Well, if you would, excuse me for shouting the word "idiot".
But, well past any hope of victory, while NOT working on negotiations, the Japs fought on with the terms you beautyfully quoted:
"We can no longer direct the war with any hope of success. The only course left is for Japan's one hundred million people to sacrifice their lives by charging the enemy to make them lose the will to fight"
Now ponder on that for a second. The ONLY COURSE?!?!?!?!?!?! What frigging idiots. The dungpoddle that both Japan and Germany stepped in was exactly this, - to keep on making people sacrifice their lives just in case the enemy might break on the last mile. Very likely, yes? Well, the Japs tried hard, on Iwo, then on Okinawa, and to their surprize, the USA kept their guts and carried on trucking. Once Okinawa was seized, it was definately over for the Japs, and hard lessons like all those air raids should have sounded clear enough. (Tokyo, - more dead than at Nagasaki)
So, I proudly use the word "Stupid" for the Japanese in charge.
And they had months for deciding, - it didn't even have to be a nuke! A grave matter of surrendering vs stepping down before being subdued!
Same goes to Germany. From Hitler's point as well as his close circle, there was always the "endsieg". But his finest commanders were above that, basically they knew that the odds were against them, and once the allies had gained foothold in France, it was just a question of time and fronts. Rommel for instance, realized. If the Western Allies would not be driven to the sea from their invasion, all would be lost. He realized, he saw it happening, he was involved in a plot against Hitler, and ended up eating some healthy cyanide.
So, dead Rommel was still right. Germany was doomed, and lost the war completely. Like the Japanese (and since Germany fell before, there was an example for the Japs to look at, - the Allies do indeed finish their jobs), the Germans fought for a lost cause. Once there was a point of pivot, all fighting of attrition was completely a waste.
Hehe, this one:
"Not one European country surrendered to the Germans without being invaded. Even France didn’t surrender until they had lost their capitol to the advancing Germans.
So why people think it would be acceptable for Japan to surrender before an invasion of their mainland is beyond me."
Beyond you? Well, Japan was already partially conquered (Iwo, then Okinawa), there was no airforce or Navy to speak of, ther was no ally any more, and the enemy could go around and bomb absolutely everything at will. All esources outside Japan were blocked as well.
No doubt you would have been well in the park with the Japanese military council...
Then the final line of genious I stumbled on:
"I would say the Japanese and German culture glorified death to the point that most of their population welcomed a chance to die for their country. A whole population doesn’t ‘commit suicide’ just because their leaders say so.
"
Now here I wholeheartedly disagree. Both nations were pushed on by a very powerful control. The Japs were a bit on their own I guess, with their warrior code in the pocket. But the Germans had a tough Nazi choice, fight and you may live, back off and you will be killed. Did the wardead Germans glorify the thought of dying? You claim that most of the population welcomed the chance of dying for their country. MOST!. Absolute rubbish.
On the contrary, it were the leaders, for they held the wand in their hands.
If you then lookl at the British, there was not just the will to fight, but also some potential. Not beaten on by the boss.
(Warning, we probably agree that the German population was quite happy about the business in the summer of 1940)
And the finite. Civil. The word "Civil" Okay, here's your "civil" stab:
"Should the British have surrendered in 1940 before the BoB when nobody seriously believed Britain could survive with her armies defeated in France? Should the Russians have surrendered when the Germans were attacking Moscow and even Stalin had lost all hope?
By Icelandic logic, yes. However I'm rather thankful that the Icelanders were not defending Britain or Moscow back then."
My whole logic was to tell what I have been supporting, - both Germany and Japan fought well over an obvious point of having lost. Great commanders like Rommel saw that, I take his point. Call it Icelandic, but I rather think that Rommel was right (which he proved to be), and then you can side with Hitler's opinion with a broad smile.
But anyway, this one, is the one Lazs was probably referring to:
" I'm rather thankful that the Icelanders were not defending Britain or Moscow back then."
And I have to say...clumsy and trollish insult. Much worse than calling Hitler and Tojo a pair of imbeciles.....
