Author Topic: If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...  (Read 3110 times)

Offline Krusty

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2007, 12:50:10 AM »
Targetware goes (stupidly) to the end of the extreme marked "making it difficult just to make watermelon difficult". It's almost impossible to land an aircraft there. Hell it's almost impossible to take 'em off! Not to mention "runways" that have hills or bumps in the middle of them, spawning in the MIDDLE of the runway and being forced to taxi to one end (where you will most likely ding your plane just trying to taxi). It is stupid to the point of confusion for 90% of the entire game engine.

It's got a black box coding module that even the people BUILDING IT don't know how it works. You plug in a HP factor for an engine and that's it. It adds torque and all the other stuff based off an archaic code foundation. The people creating the planes, for example, don't even know the power curves or the proper cruise settings for the engines. These are supposed to be included with each aircraft so the user (the player) can set proper settings. Only if the folks MAKING it don't have a damned clue, how the hell can they be sure it's RIGHT????

It's a totally whacked out project, destined to failure.

Offline hubsonfire

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2007, 01:08:15 AM »
I went up for a hop in a real plane the other day. While I'm sure the comparison of a 70s vintage 172 to a 40s era warplane is apples and oranges, it was pretty basic. I think that's what I like about AH; without all the seat-of-the-pants feedback, things like trim and engine settings become mere guage-watching and button pushing. While that may be realistic, it's painfully dull.

I like the concept of firewall the throttle, kick some rudder, pull back, and take off, because it mirrors my own limited experience in planes.
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Offline Hwkeye

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Dudes
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2007, 07:45:20 AM »
When your wrong...your wrong!

Offline Ghosth

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2007, 08:06:47 AM »
Targetware's biggest failure IMO, Immersion, or the lack of it.

1 too busy setting, manageing, manipulating controls to ever be able to look around and say yeaaaaaaaaaaah, I'm FLYING!

2 No permanent world, you log on, you pick a scenario, you pick plane, finally get off the ground, and WHAM back in the tower you find yourself.
Scenario ended. HUGE immersion killer IMO.

3 Both Targetware & iL2 have lousy ingame maps the last I saw.
Ace's high clipboard & map setup is light years ahead.

4 iL2, FB, Pacific fighters, all look visually stunning.
But all fly like your a plane model perched on a giant invisible ball.
It just doesn't "FEEL" right. You see the plane makeing the moves, but don't feel drag, wind, mushy controls when out of trim, etc.
In that respect even FS 2004 is superior, but AH rules all.

5 None of them have, or will, ever have 300 people online in one place at one time. AH has had that many in a single special event. Heck I've seen a lot of Fri night Squad ops that will have well over 200 online for a 1 life event.

Show me anything like that in anything else out there.
Until you can, its all apples & oranges.
And even if iL2 could do it, they'd lose most of their current eye candy pulling it off. Which is why they don't even try. They know they are better off selling it as a boxed sim with limited multiplayer.

Last, targetware has been waiting what, 2, 2.5 years for the big .65 upgrade that never happened. Then all of a sudden its not .65 anymore, its the equivilent of AH1 going to AH2. WTF?

Personally I would love to see targetware make it. Just because it would be an alternative. I'm not sure about you, but I've looked around, there really isn't much else out there.  While I don't agree with some of their decisions, it was  their decision to make and I respect that.  But if they can't keep up with the basic engine without a 3 year melt down how can they possibly stay alive? I waited a year & a half for the .65 upgrade so "maybe" RS would be flyable. Eventually I just walked away. Its a year plus later & they still don't have it.

Ohhh yeah, Fighter Ace. ROFLMAO.
Full realism, take your fav plane up, bring it into a turn, and keep tightening the turn. Most if not all the planes would do a flat circle at about 150 mph ALL DAY LONG without loseing E. Around and around and around endlessly.

In fact the only way you could stall them was to point the nose straight up.

Needless to say this one didn't last long on my hard drive.

Offline Hajo

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2007, 08:51:02 AM »
I enjoy the IL2 Series.  Fun to play when you just don't feel like playing the MA.  Nice break to fly the missions once in awhile.

Aces High however is just more fun to play.  Many human opponents as compared to a few.  And no dumbed down Al.
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Offline scottydawg

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2007, 10:20:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
This is interesting, in a very amusing sort of way.

... (werry long post)...
 


I hardly ever agree with Kweassa but I think he's struck it on the head here. It's all about personal preference and how 'tactically immersed' you want to be in the game. Personally I'd rather not screw around with things like mixture settings, cowl flaps, etc. etc., but that's my personal preference.  I want to fly, not push buttons all day trying to get my plane into the air and fly straight. Like hubs said, I would find it dull and repetitive and not enjoyable.  If I did I would buy and fly a real plane.

People like Benny and some others would really like to have CEM down to the rivets because that's what they enjoy.

Being a small dev house like HTC is, they really need to focus on the featureset that will appeal to the most players and potential players.  If it's simplified and 'gamey' in order to have good attraction and retention rates, that's good for the game.  However it's up to HTC to decide how 'realistically immersive' to make the game, with the knowledge that only a very small minority would actually utilize the advanced features/controls... Aside from the few birds that significantly benefit performance-wise from manual fuel tank selection, how many people do you imagine actually spend their time ganking around with the fuel tanks aside from drops?

That being said, I found the IL2 game visually beautiful, aurally lacking, confusing to set up and control, bouncy flight modeling, retarded missions.

Offline Boxboy

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2007, 05:44:17 PM »
I seem to remember all the same arguements in AW about easy mode vs real mode or whatever.  

In fact the easy mode guys NEVER or very seldom flew real mode, because once you get used to arcade flying it is hard to go to any type of realisim.

I thought that back when AH first came out HT and crew had hit upon a good "middle road" for real time vs easy.

Now we have as a community caved into full or almost full easy mode (I speak here or auto take off, auto trim, etc etc).

I guess I don't really care all that much either way except for all the time I spent learning how to fly AH in the beginning as compared the new guys now.
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Offline scottydawg

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2007, 06:00:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boxboy
I seem to remember all the same arguements in AW about easy mode vs real mode or whatever.  

In fact the easy mode guys NEVER or very seldom flew real mode, because once you get used to arcade flying it is hard to go to any type of realisim.

I thought that back when AH first came out HT and crew had hit upon a good "middle road" for real time vs easy.

Now we have as a community caved into full or almost full easy mode (I speak here or auto take off, auto trim, etc etc).

I guess I don't really care all that much either way except for all the time I spent learning how to fly AH in the beginning as compared the new guys now.


Apples and oranges, my man.  In AW it was the arenas that were easymode/FR.  here it's a personal choice.

Offline mussie

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2007, 07:47:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3


So really, when you hear people compare them, You're really hearing people that are actually comparing apples to oranges.



DAM WELL PUT

Offline Krusty

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2007, 07:49:57 PM »
Most other games that have "arcade" mode have relaxed physics, relaxed rules that greatly simplify the entire game code underneath it.

That's what AWs RR/FR difference was, the arena code itself was processing things differently.

In Aces High you don't have this. The rules are all the same. The density of the air is the same. The ballistics of the gun and lethality of the round is the same.

Players may choose how they interact WITH that set of physics rules, but they may not bypass them.

That is why AH does not now, nor has it ever had, an "arcade" feel.

Stall limiter is an individual option. It hurts your performance more than it helps. At the benefit of keeping you from spinning out and dropping a wing, you lose a great chunk of your ability to manuver your aircraft. Trust me, you can instantly tell. It feels like you've lost one of your elevators.

Auto takeoff is a wierd thing... It's a nice luxury to have, if you can't learn to take off for yourself, or if you're taking off in very heavy bombers, but for the most part it's more fun to take off for yourself, and gives you the ability to turn around after you pull gear up, to dodge vulchers, and do what you want.


All arguments that AH is arcade-ish don't hold up in my book. It's got a damned good set of laws for physics and interaction. Heck, I considered the "hit bubble" of AH1 to be far far more arcade like than anything we have today. That's gone and the game is a million times more realistic (and fun!) for it.

Offline Kweassa

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2007, 01:39:25 AM »
Quote
Most other games that have "arcade" mode have relaxed physics, relaxed rules that greatly simplify the entire game code underneath it.

That's what AWs RR/FR difference was, the arena code itself was processing things differently.

In Aces High you don't have this. The rules are all the same. The density of the air is the same. The ballistics of the gun and lethality of the round is the same.


 AH has relaxed physics in takeoff runs and landings, especially concerning the importance of tail wheel locks, combating dangers of groundloops, importance of hardened tarmac/airstrip vs. just 'ground', ditching a plane at speeds, maintaining rate of descent at landings. IL2 may not be as frustrating as Targetware in takeoff and landing runs, but it does require the presence of some discipline and practice in getting to learn the proper method of take off and landings. It's simply more realistic and coherent.

 Therefore, your asserion that AH is inherently different other games by being 'born into the realism caste' is false.


Quote
Players may choose how they interact WITH that set of physics rules, but they may not bypass them.

That is why AH does not now, nor has it ever had, an "arcade" feel.


 AH bypasses certain sets of physics upon need, as mentioned above. Therefore it can certainly feel "arcade" to gamers who play IL2 or Targetware, where they can't simply 'bypass' the process of coping with difficult physics of takeoff or landings.
 

Quote
Stall limiter is an individual option. It hurts your performance more than it helps. At the benefit of keeping you from spinning out and dropping a wing, you lose a great chunk of your ability to manuver your aircraft. Trust me, you can instantly tell. It feels like you've lost one of your elevators.

Auto takeoff is a wierd thing... It's a nice luxury to have, if you can't learn to take off for yourself, or if you're taking off in very heavy bombers, but for the most part it's more fun to take off for yourself, and gives you the ability to turn around after you pull gear up, to dodge vulchers, and do what you want.


 Pretty irrelevant matter at hand.


Quote
All arguments that AH is arcade-ish don't hold up in my book. It's got a damned good set of laws for physics and interaction.


 Yes, because you're biased against other games.

 AH does have a good set of physics but it has its shortcomings. Unfortunately, people just refuse to acknowledge these shortcomings as shortcomings, and treat it as if it was either intentional or adequate, whereas they view other games dealing with such problems as "going overboard" or "unnecessary".

 It's basically the same defensive mental reaction towards someone saying "I have a big noodle", by responding "you don't need a big noodle".


Quote
Heck, I considered the "hit bubble" of AH1 to be far far more arcade like than anything we have today. That's gone and the game is a million times more realistic (and fun!) for it.


 The irony is many AH gamers hated it when the "hit resolution" was refined to what we have now, and that's not even half of it.

 Many AH gamers hated the realistic cockpits,
 they hated the new icon system,
 they hated the new head position restrictions,
 they hated the new GV armour modelling,
 they hated the ack...

 ...and they hate every new change that brings AH somewhat closer to 'realistic' properties. They hate it for about a week and a half, and then get used to it, and forget they ever hated it at all.

 This tells a lot about how AH gamers' brains are wired up when it comes to 'realism' discussions.

Offline Karnak

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2007, 05:30:21 AM »
The biggest dings against IL-2 in my book are the view system (though AH's is often too lienient, IL-2's is WAY too limited), the fact that anything over 500 meters is impossible to identify, even at highest detail settings and at 1920x1280 and, biggest of all, that nothing has any sense of weight or presence to it.  I simply cannot tell one fighter from another without looking at my cockpit and wings.  In AH I would know immediately if my Ki-84's FM had been replaced by a Spitfire's, let alone a P-47's or Bf110's and in Il-2 I simply cannot feel that difference.
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Offline Edbert

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2007, 08:10:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wstpt10

Il2 is fun when you want to dive a 262 through a flight of B17s with one hand on the joystick and the other down your pants.

HOTAS in the truest sense.

Offline Lye-El

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2007, 08:54:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boxboy
I seem to remember all the same arguements in AW about easy mode vs real mode or whatever.  

In fact the easy mode guys NEVER or very seldom flew real mode, because once you get used to arcade flying it is hard to go to any type of realisim.


Now we have as a community caved into full or almost full easy mode (I speak here or auto take off, auto trim, etc etc).



I was an AW easy mode guy. I tried full realism mode and spun in every time I tried to turn. Got frustrated and went back to half time. But, as I recall, it was costing me 6$ per hour to be frustrated when I could be flying.

As far as Auto take off, it's just easier.  Can I take off as Pilot in Command? Of course, but it serves no useful point unless I'm trying to get in the air on a capped field using the flaps and gear up as soon as I get a positive rate of climb so I can at least start to turn.

I like WWII aircraft. I'm not interested in the cockpit minutia of actually flying one.....unless I get the chance to actually fly one. Stroking the fuel primer 8 times or whatever before cranking over is not really up there on my list of things I want to do in a game.

You have the option of using auto take-off or auto trim ect. So I guess, I don't get it. If you don't want it you think nobody should have the option? Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not being antagonistic. It just seems to me that if this was a game for Grognards the game would not appeal to most people.


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline Boxboy

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If I hear one more IL-2 fanboy say Aces High II is arcade ...
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2007, 09:16:22 AM »
Well I didn't nor do I now think you were wrong in most of what you have done with ACES HIGH HT, I did think that adding the "easY mode" for take off was not needed since it takes very little time to learn how to do it without that.

I too paid 6 bucks and hour to play AW and remember quite well when you tried to get some code from them to do skins and were roundly rebuffed.

As far as pumping the primer for startup I think the time you have alotted for takeoff start and warmup is a fairly good representation of doing those things without the bordom of having to do it.
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