Author Topic: Flaps in the turn fight?  (Read 3267 times)

Offline mtnman

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Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2007, 07:59:25 PM »
I personally use manual trim in fights like Murdr and TC mentioned also.  I use combat trim for general flying, but when in fights I prefer manual.

 I almost always end up dumping flaps in my fights, and I don't like the ballooning effect the combination of flaps and combat trim give me.  I basically only fly the corsair variants.  I like them trimmed for fights right around the 275-300 mark.  I hate auto trim for vertical roping.  I find I have difficulty reversing quickly and smoothly, and attribute it to the fact that combat trim throws in a lot of elevator, aileron, and rudder trim at the top of my rope.  Things go much better for me if I'm trimmed closer to neutral.

My general strategy for flaps usage is that I never consider flaps to be neutral in affect.  They are either helping or hindering me, depending on the moment.  I don't limit myself to dropping a certain amount of flaps, but rather I go by feel.  I'll drop all five notches if I need to.

When the F4U is approaching the edge of a stall, it seems to give a little wobble and drop a wing, hard.  If I have that happen, I know I was too late in dropping a notch, or another notch, of flaps.  I've already screwed up if that happens.  So I try to anticipate when that will happen, and drop a notch before that (just before).

If the flaps "blow" back up then I've also screwed up again, at least in my mind.  Generally, that means I'm accelerating, which means the flaps are hindering me again.  So I try to raise them a notch before that happens as well.  Not all at once, necessarily, because taking them all the way up to fast can do bad things too.  If I'm very much nose-down, and trying to rapidly accelerate (panic mode?, or chase mode...)  then I will take them all the way up quickly.

I often (very often) drop 1-2 notches of flaps at the top of immelman type reverses to help bump my nose over quicker.  As soon as I'm nose-down again I put them back up.  My left index finger "lives" on my flap switch(on my throttle).  Pulling back/up drops flaps, pushing down/forward puts them back up. (Just like the throttle-push to go faster).  If I'm reversing flat to burn E, then they get deployed there too- to help burn the E..

I don't find I need to drop my gear for braking more than once or twice per month, and that is usually in a last-ditch effort to not over-shoot.  If I do drop them to force an overshoot, I try to drop them when my opponent is in a position where he can't see them go down.  I put them up again very quickly too.  They're not generally deployed for more than 1-3 seconds at a time.  I feel that if my opponent see's them go down I've given him information I'd rather he not have.

What Dedalos said---  They way I fight spits, N1k's, zero's, etc...  I get them to go fast, them I slam on the brakes and turn inside them, using my slower speed and flaps to turn inside them and then kill them.  It has to be quick, because once they slow down they will turn inside me.  RIGHT before that happens, I exit the fight by diving out while they are in a climb.  That will give me time to get some speed while they reverse and try to run me down.  Generally I have 1.5-2k seperation.  I don't want any more than that.  They cooperate by chasing me.  Since I'm running they will firewall and WEP.  If I'm getting away, I drop throttle a bit to keep them chasing.  Once they are back up to 325 or so, I chop throttle, break hard (dropping flaps generally) and execute the barrel roll defense.  Once again I have a brief opportunity to get my kill, or I will escape again and try over.  I can slow down very rapidly in the hog compared to a spit.  Couple that with the fact that the spit driver thinks he needs to chase hard, and that he thinks he's in control...

If the spit disengages, he will die most times.  He may get some seperation at first, but I'll run him down.  When he's forced to break again, I chop, drop, and decelerate again.  Same pattern as before, but I have better position this time.  If he tries to disengage he helps me out  :^)

All this slow flying draws crowds.  If you don't have good SA, you die.  When the furball is running north to south, I make sure I escape east or west to keep the fight private...

MtnMan
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Vortex01

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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2007, 08:10:34 PM »
From the Aces High Training page:

"CT does not work immediately or exactly, it does not work well at very high or very low speeds, and it does not take into account things like flaps. Basically, CT is simply a table of pre-generated trim settings for various airspeeds with the aircraft in a clean condition.

*****(Aerodynamically clean, meaning no flaps or gear deployed.)*****

As your speed and altitude change, CT automatically adjusts your trim tabs for you to get close to a balanced trim condition. While CT is fine for just cruising around looking for a fight, when you actually engage in combat, you may or may not want to use CT depending on the conditions."

So if you use combat flaps you should get to know your manual trim settings.
"The green field, red barn and the lone silo, it is all that captures me eye as I fly....."  Memories of Red Baron on INN

Offline Domin

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Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2007, 10:07:34 PM »
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Anyone can fly a yak at 400mph, see how they do at 100.


I agree.

Offline whiteman

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Re: Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2008, 03:24:29 AM »
great info thanks mtnman, tried explaining this stuff yesterday but i'm not to good. going to send this page to some one.

Offline goober69

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Re: Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2008, 10:37:14 PM »
i should probably learn to use manual trim, it might make me better, im just so used to ct

only time i shut it off is when im out of control i have my nob pre set to full up and just clik it off to pull out.

in the 38 though i find it does help me to have it nuteral when engaged and going for vertical reversals and hammerheads. keeps me from flipping on my back so easy.
flying as Marvin57
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Offline vizwhiz

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Re: Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2008, 12:12:46 AM »
Sounds like I need to learn to turn CT off in fights...never have paid that much attention to it. 
However, I have noticed a lot of the effects described here, having to push the nose down to line up shots, the ballooning effect when flaps are out, etc. etc. 

Technical question here - when you toggle the combat trim off, does it stay in the last position it was just in, the last position it was in prior to CT (last manual settings) or automatically go to neutral position? 
Also, I am assuming that when you toggle it back on, it "erases" any other trim input you had and goes to whatever CT factors it to be...
Please advise...
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2008, 02:51:10 AM »
Technical question here - when you toggle the combat trim off, does it stay in the last position it was just in, the last position it was in prior to CT (last manual settings) or automatically go to neutral position? 
Also, I am assuming that when you toggle it back on, it "erases" any other trim input you had and goes to whatever CT factors it to be...
Please advise...

When I had the elevator and aileron trims mapped to an extra HAT switch the trims stayed right where CT had them at the moment I toggled CT off.  I then immediately adjusted my trims if needed, and I got good at toggling CT off before the trims moved where I didn't want them to go.  For example, if I was going to rope someone, I might enter the vertical with CT on, and trims were close to where I wanted them, so I would toggle CT off before they moved due to my decreasing speed.

I now have the elevator and aileron trims mapped to dials on my throttle.  When I toggle CT off, the trims move to where I have my dials set.  This allows me to pre-set a desired trim setting and when I flip CT off my trims move to a known, pre-set point.

Regardless of manual trim setting, when CT is toggled back on the trims will move to wherever CT thinks they should be.  The change either way isn't immediate, it takes a few seconds for the trims to move.

MtnMan
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Xargos

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Re: Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2008, 06:08:59 AM »
Homeboy wrote an interesting article on trim.

http://snomhf.exofire.net/ahtrim.html
Jeffery R."Xargos" Ward

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Offline Widewing

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Re: Flaps in the turn fight?
« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2008, 01:18:13 PM »
As a side note to this discussion, let me state that I have yet to generate a smaller turning circle using manual trim vs combat trim. That's regardless of the airplane. There's no difference using manual or CT when it comes to minimum turn radius. The difference that I see in some aircraft is that it is a bit easier to stay on the edge using manual trim. This relates to the accuracy or resolution of the specific joystick in use. Less sophisticated sticks usually are not as precise and may benefit more from manual trim. I know this; if I switch between my FighterStick and an X45, it's easier to stay on the edge with the FighterStick.

A second thing to consider is that flying in manual trim results in faster control response because it seems that CT takes a split second longer to adjust to sudden inputs and can induce some nose bounce while CT gets happy.

My use of manual trim depends on the aircraft I'm flying. Aircraft with high control forces lead me to use manual trim. Those that retain low control force at low and high speeds leads me to leave CT on. This is in reference to the MAs. Dueling, I go in and out of CT as I feel necessary as trim is mapped to a throttle 4-way hat.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.