Author Topic: Stability with the Ki-84  (Read 3170 times)

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2007, 12:40:28 AM »
Karash, I believe your problem MAY lie in the fact that you trim your plane to full possitive possition when ever you engage in a tunrfight or go a bit slower (if I understood you correct).

Triming doesn't do anything in real life (nor in AH) but to remove stick forces. This is why combat trim is bad a high speeds as it tries to keep the plane at that speed, meaning you will just keep going faster and the plane will keep trimming down when you really want help fighting the elevator forces by trimming up.

What is important during a fight is that it is trimmed at the speed you are flying at, otherwise bringing the stick to the center won't make the plane fly level, it will nose up or down (depening on wether trim is set to a lower speed or a higher speed). This makes aiming difficult.

When you set teh trim to fully possitive before entering a fight, you only make you stick deflections more sensitive.

Imagine this, you have a stick that you can move 30 points back, and 30 points forward...

Ok hold on, gotto get to work, will continue this shortly...
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2007, 01:10:47 AM »
...imagine this...

You have a joystick you can move a certain number of points, in this case 60. 30 forward and 30 back.

If you trim you plane to fully possitive (nose up trimming for low speeds) and you fly ANY faster then that speed your plane will want to nose up when you have you stick centered. That means that you only have to move the stick back say, 20 points in order for the plane to give full elevator deflection. That means you've just removed 33% of your sensitivity, your fine adjustments. This will make you snapstall far easier. I am GUESSING this is what makes you snapstall. An educated guess I should say.

I've never experienced the mentioned problem in the Ki84. Of course it DOES snapstall easily, there is a very fine line between controlled flight and snapstalling in it. In that way it reminds you a whole lot of the 190.

I never use combat trim my self. However, it will NOT make you turn either better or worse (in ANY plane) UNLESS you are flying too fast to be able to pull up without using manual trim. It does NOT make your plane turn any better in low speeds, it merely takes the forces of the stick. Anything you may "feel" makes it a better turner without combat trim is just that, a feeling.

Important to mention is that combat trim is ment for a plane without anything else down, ie flaps or gear.

The thing I don't like about CT (part from removing one aspect of realism) is that once you go into very slow flight, the CT will try and trim you up a little bit more thus effectivly decreasing my "sensitivity points" further, making it harder to aim and harder to stay in controlled flight without snapstalling.

Not sure if I made my self clear, so ask away if there was something anyone didn't understand.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2007, 01:13:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
So in a slug it out, low speed dogfight, you gain no advantage.... unless Hitech is wrong?:noid


Correct. Neither in real life nor in AH.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline SuperDud

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4589
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2007, 01:49:35 AM »
Some will never believe Wilbus
SuperDud
++Blue Knights++

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2007, 12:58:05 PM »
Probarly not...
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Sweet2th

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1040
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2007, 08:11:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
Some will never believe Wilbus


or they just don't give a d..............

Offline SuperDud

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4589
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2007, 08:24:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sweet2th
or they just don't give a d..............
WOW, you rebel you! Any luck on becoming a trainer yet? Oh wait, wouldn't caring be part of what it takes to be a trainer? No wonder you weren't considered.
SuperDud
++Blue Knights++

Offline Sweet2th

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1040
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2007, 10:03:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
Dee Dee Dee



Ride that ded horse ride it.You weren't sayin that when i was helpin you....

Offline SuperDud

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4589
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2007, 12:28:40 AM »
nevermind. I had something else written but this forum isn't the place for a purse fight. I'm done.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 12:32:45 AM by SuperDud »
SuperDud
++Blue Knights++

Offline Gianlupo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5154
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2007, 03:18:29 AM »
Karash, if I were you, I'd stick with Wilbus' advices. He's probably the best stick around in a Ki84, believe him.

I fly it a lot, too, with CT enabled (no SL) and I never experienced the troubles you're reporting. Yes, the plane is sensible to snaproll, but once you get used to it, you shouldn't be snaprolling it much.
Live to fly, fly to live!

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2007, 11:51:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sweet2th
or they just don't give a d..............


I thought that was why were are here, in the help forum, to listen and give/take advices.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Karash

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 126
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2007, 03:23:16 PM »
Excellent advise in here, and I appreciate all the comments.  Looking back I think I do try to ride out that danger zone as I hate getting to slow in a 2v2 or 3v3 situation.  When I am dueling someone I am usually quick to dump my E and go for flaps...

Offline GooseAW

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 566
      • http://www.chawks.com
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2007, 05:53:51 PM »
I didn't read all the way thru but it sounds like...as some others did touch on, you need to adjust your stick scaling on all axies and adjust your stick deadband and dampening on each axis as well.

I think AKAK had a screenie of an example of this. use CT and I only go manual trim in the slowest tightest of fights.

Offline bongaroo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1822
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2007, 09:35:03 AM »
I've been really enjoying the Ki84 recently.  It is a very interesting bird.  Wish I had been filming yesterday when a mission of b17's and p51's were attacking a base at about 11k.  Flamed a bomber head on, pulled over the top to take another before actively engaging the escorts.  Ended up in a valley vs 2 mustangs.  I would of had both of them and escaped if 2 more hadn't shown up to make it 4v1.  Still got two of them before biting it.

The Ki84 seems to be able to stand up to a beating a little better than I expect it to.  PW's seem common though.

I think I've experienced something similar to what the original post is mentioning and the explanation of only one wing stalling makes sense.  Ease up on the turn a bit and try to chop throttle for a sec before entering the turn.

First time up in a ki84 I augered trying to enter the first fight I found.  I've been a bit more careful about my split-s's and dive speeds since then!

:aok

Any resident ki84 aces or trainers mind flying with me a bit and giving some pointers?
Callsign: Bongaroo
Formerly: 420ace


Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Stability with the Ki-84
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2007, 10:19:44 AM »
I'll hopefully start flying again soon, been on another one of my long brakes.

Will gladly fly some when I get back in it, just havent' felt like flying for a couple of months, part because it's summer now and much of my time i spent outside.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.