Why I'll never own a Pit Bull

[Cougar68]

Originally posted by Odee
Can we all at least agree that certain people should never own even a toy dog, or gun, and get on with life?
 

Absolutely.  A bad owner can turn a good dog bad in no time at all.  

Originally posted by -CodyC
Give me a break cougar, dogs are like kids, they know they've done something wrong when you spank them.  

There are loads of other more effective ways to keep a dog in its place than putting a boot in its butt.  But that's another thread of its own.

My biggest issue with the pit bull is the instinct.  I don't deny that owners are responsible for lots of behaviorial issues.  I just don't believe a bred in instinct can ever be completely overcome even with good training.

[Odee]

Some breeds do require more attention than others.  That is why the reponsible gun owner...  uhm, pet owner learns to 'read' their pet, and stay on top of any potential situation before it turns into a problem.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by eskimo2
Do you mean trained, or bred?

Some anthrax owners are responsible, some aren’t.  Stop the ban on anthrax!

I meant what I typed. The pit bulls that are bred specifically for fighting are bred for aggression (among other things). Without that aggression they won't fight.

[Elfie]

I just don't believe a bred in instinct can ever be completely overcome even with good training.

It can be bred out of them by the use of selective breeding. It can also be overcome with posistive/negative reinforcement.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Elfie
I meant what I typed. The pit bulls that are bred specifically for fighting are bred for aggression (among other things). Without that aggression they won't fight.

"Not all pit bulls have been bred for fighting."

[Elfie]

after reading all these postings i have concluded that all the labrador and beagle owners must be really good owners who train their dogs very well.

Even labs and beagles can bite. They are less likely to because the majority of them aren't very aggressive towards humans, just one trait they have been bred for.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by eskimo2
"Not all pit bulls have been bred for fighting."

Now you are just being silly.

[Odee]

Originally posted by Elfie
Now you are just being silly.

Elfie, you display a remarkable ammount of ignorance in such a short sentence.

[Cougar68]

Originally posted by Elfie
It can be bred out of them by the use of selective breeding. It can also be overcome with posistive/negative reinforcement.

You're getting closer.  It can definitely be stamped out by selective breeding.  The problem is that this will take generations and responsible  breeding which unfortunately is what the vast majority of the pit crowd doesn't practice.  

Positive/negative reinforcement is only effective when the dominant pack member (hopefully the owner) is present.  The instinct can still come out when the dog is on its own.

[Halo]

Enough scary dog talk.  I'm renting a Bengal from the zoo and having it mark its spoor around the perimeter of my yard twice weekly, more if it rains.  

Uh (trying to remember Frank Buck Bring 'Em Back Alive terminology), nah, spoor just tracks, I guess, though it sounds earthier.  You know, the tinkling that guy did to keep wolves away from his camp in Alaska.  

What's that term?  Spraying?  Marking?  Bartender, another keg of Canine Repellent Fluid!

[-CodyC]

Originally posted by Cougar68
Absolutely.  A bad owner can turn a good dog bad in no time at all.  

 

There are loads of other more effective ways to keep a dog in its place than putting a boot in its butt.  But that's another thread of its own.

My biggest issue with the pit bull is the instinct.  I don't deny that owners are responsible for lots of behaviorial issues.  I just don't believe a bred in instinct can ever be completely overcome even with good training.

I agree cougar, with my pitt i have only had to kick the crap out of her one time and i do mean kick.  It was the last time she got in a fight with my heeler.  Since then most forms of punishment usually involve a finger flick on the snout or ear.  If she is trying to overpower me on the leash then she usually ends up choking herself until she figures out that she can't pull me.  I don't beat my dogs, i dish out a small dose of pain as a negative reinforcement.  Most times i just raise my voice and she understands, then she ends up in the garage away from the other dogs (time out).  

The only problem i have found with both my dogs is there are certain things that negative reinforcement can't get rid of.  My pitt is tall enough to knock our trash can into the floor and tear into it.  She does this on a regular basis given the opportunity.  No matter how much I yell or punish, even though she knows she has done wrong, she will do it again.  I think this is just a survival instinct that can't be stamped out.

Also Cougar I will add that i do agree with you that traits can't be stamped out, only suppressed through positive and negative reinforcement by the owner.  I refer to the situation in which the dog of your ex-father in law killed a lab.  The dogs owner was there, but still went and killed a lab.  So obviously he did not discourage this type of behavior.  If the behavior is not discouraged then the dog has no force telling it that what it is doing is wrong.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Odee
Elfie, you display a remarkable ammount of ignorance in such a short sentence.

Explain.

[Elfie]

Positive/negative reinforcement is only effective when the dominant pack member (hopefully the owner) is present. The instinct can still come out when the dog is on its own.

If the dog has been trained properly, it won't come out when the pack leader isn't present.

Example. If you don't allow your dogs on the furniture in your home. When you walk into the room and see him on the couch, you tell him to get down. This happens over and over. The only thing the dog learns is that it is not ok to be on the furniture when you are in the room. He will never learn that it is not ok to be on the furniture if you don't catch him every time BEFORE he gets onto your couch. You have to stop him when he first thinks about it or he doesn't learn what you wanted him to learn. That same concept applies to all behavioral training.

[Cougar68]

Originally posted by Elfie
That same concept applies to all behavioral training.

Behavioral yes, but not instinct.  I can walk into the kitchen and throw a t-bone steak on the floor and my dogs won't touch it.  I can leave it there and walk into the other room and they still won't touch it.  They'll look at me like I'm nuts for leaving it there, but they won't touch it.  If that same t-bone drops when nobody is home, it's on!!!  An animal's bred in instinct is just as strong as food drive.  It can't be completely eliminated to the point that I would feel comfortable in trusting my or someone else's life on it.  That's exactly what happens with pit bulls.  You're betting your life on that instinct not popping up even once.  It ain't worth it.  Good dogs that aren't bred to kill are too plentiful in the shelters to have to deal with that.

[Cougar68]

I'm going to end my posting on this thread here.  There's absolutely no way my mind will be changed (yours either) and we're just going in circles at this point.  I sincerely hope that those with pit bulls will forever be able to describe their dogs as well mannered and nice.  And I also sincerely hope that nobody ever breeds another.    It's always good to talk animals, even with differing viewpoints.