Author Topic: For all you rabid environmentalists  (Read 4350 times)

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2007, 03:44:51 PM »
Quote
ferndale... you are still missing the point.. if matters not how much co2 makes up whatever type of atmosphere.. the sun heats em all up.


It very much matters how much CO2 is in the atmosphere, as it helps retain heat. Certainly it's the sun that causes the atmosphere to heat up, but CO2 makes it cool more slowly.

Lock a dog in a closed car in the heat of summer and it might be the sun that kills the animal, but it's the closed windows that make the difference.

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2007, 03:58:23 PM »
Quote


ITS THE SUN STUPID

People have been trying to tag Earth weather patterns to the various solar patterns, the 11-year sunspot cycle, the solar magnetic cycle of 22 years, the 80 year long small variations in the sunspot cycle, a cycle with a length of about 180 years that is becoming apparent from long term data, since the early 1800's.  

Every theory tends to start to come apart as long term observations and more data come available.  The sun, aparently in relation to humanity's existence, is pretty stable.  Yes, the sun changes, over the course of hundreds of millions of years, in a lifetime measured in billions of years. The effects on Earth have much more to do with Earth's orbit changing over time as it orbits the sun, and less on the sun itself.  The Earth is a wobbling ball whose orbit eccentricity, tilt, and other parameters change over time have bigger effects than the sun itself.

People really do not have a sense of the difference in scale at work here.

As a comparison:
Age of the universe about  13,700,000,000 years or so.
Age of the sun/solar system        4,560,000,000 years old
How much longer the sun has     4,000,000,000 to 5,000,000,000 years left as a main sequence star.
Precambrian Era in history about 4,500,000,000 to 543,000,000 years. Oldest rocks, reducing atmosphere transition to oxygen, oldest fossils.
The earliest documented ice age    850,000,000 to 630,000,000 years ago (the Cryogenian period).
Paleozoic Era ran from about          543,000,000 to 248,000,000 years. Start with explosion of multi-celled life, ends it 90% of all species wiped out.
A Mini Ice Age was recorded about 460,000,000 to 430,000,000 years ago.
There was extensive ice caps from 350,000,000 to 260,000,000 years ago.
Pangea beak up spans between    250,000,000 and 60,000,000 years ago
Mesozoic Era ran from about          248,000,000 to 65,000,000 years ago. Hi Dino. Bye Bye Dino.
Sun's orbit about the galaxy about 225,000,000 to 250,000,000 years to complete one revolution.
Cenozoic Era ran from about            65,000,000 years to today
Primates go back to the Paleocene   60,000,000 years ago.
The first Antarctic ice formed about   40,000,000 years - this also marks the start of the "current" Ice Age, with glaciation periods occurring on 40,000 and 100,000 year cycles.  Yes, we are IN a geological ice age period now, in an interglacial period which should last another 14,000 years.
Homo habilis goes back to around      2,600,000 to 1,500,000 years ago, along with stone tools.
Earth's Milankovitch Cycles occur about 450,000 years (Orbital variation cycles combine and compound influence).
Homo Sapiens have been around for     250,000 years.
Earth's Eccentricity Cycle around the sun 95,000 years changes from a thin ellipse (oval) to a circle and back again
Modern man is roughly considered to be 50,000 years ago with burials, bone tools, and clothing.  
Earth's Obliquity Cycle runs on about a   42,000 year cycle (the earth wobbles and the angle of the axis, with respect to the plane of revolution around the sun, varies between 22.1° and 24.5°)
Earth's Precession Cycle running about   21,000 year cycle (axial tilt toward and away from sun during orbit).
The last glacial period ended around 10,000 years ago.  Should last another 14,00 years.  The next Ice Age expected in 50,000 years due to Earth's orbit.
Recorded history goes back approximately 6,000 years.


If it were truly the sun at work here, we, as a species, would be totally screwed.  If it were an Earth orbit cycle, it would be readily apparent --- no it's not an Earth cycle effect at work on our atmosphere and environment.  That leaves environment.  At least the environment we have a chance to positively influence to our benefit.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 04:29:14 PM by tedrbr »

Offline Stang

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6119
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2007, 04:04:55 PM »
Isn't the universe only like 6,000 years old?

I thought man walked with the dinosars, so couldn't we ask them?

:confused:

Offline tedrbr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1813
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2007, 04:05:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airscrew
What is particulary funny to me is using that argument to discount the intrepation of the Mars data but ignoring that argument when discussing the Earth's data


We have access to a lot more information on the Earth.  We've already accessed  740,000 years atmospheric history by way of 3km deep Antarctic ice cores which is by far the oldest continuous climate record obtained from ice cores so far.  We've hundreds of years of weather observations and recorded data from all over the planet to draw on.  We've got hundreds of years of data to collect from tree rings.  We've deposits in the earth that can be dug up an analyzed.  We've got sediments in lakes, seas, and the deep sea bed that we can access.

We've got nothing on Mars compared to all of that.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 04:18:33 PM by tedrbr »

Offline cpxxx

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2707
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2007, 04:06:10 PM »
Never mind Mars, look at Venus, runaway greenhouse effect. That is our future. The Venusians were just like us once, complacent, in denial. They wouldn't give up their SUVs either. They didn't believe the venvironmentalists when the flagged up the dangers of Venusian made CO2 in the atmosphere.

Now look at them, bathed in acid rain that would burn the fake tan off a New York socialites face.  

There's a lesson there for us all. ;)

Offline indy007

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2007, 04:18:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
It very much matters how much CO2 is in the atmosphere, as it helps retain heat. Certainly it's the sun that causes the atmosphere to heat up, but CO2 makes it cool more slowly.

Lock a dog in a closed car in the heat of summer and it might be the sun that kills the animal, but it's the closed windows that make the difference.


Incorrect analogy.

A closed window blocks convection.

Co2 does not block convection. That's why it's incorrect to call it a "greenhouse" gas. A greenhouse works on the principle of blocking convection. co2, being a gas, is extremely permeable.

Adding co2 actually promotes plant growth quite a bit. However, the effect of it working as insulation is logarithmic. It's backwards from what most people perceive as an exponential growing problem. A very small, local net increase in humidity has more heating effect than doubling the environment's co2.

storch

  • Guest
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2007, 05:14:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
Isn't the universe only like 6,000 years old?

I thought man walked with the dinosars, so couldn't we ask them?

:confused:
good point.  I'll try to remember to ask my mother in law.  she is is coming over later.

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12686
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2007, 07:17:29 PM »
I think Michael Crichton was spot on. Those who have turned away from traditional religions are just creating new ones and the church of Global Warming is the most popular among them today.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Stegahorse

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 306
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2007, 07:23:28 PM »
The point is that those who want to be in control want Human Beings to be at fault for Global Warming. If Mankind is doing the heating then there is hope for a man to be all powerful.

The Serene people know the truth of the reality. There are far more powerful things out there; the Sun is just one example.


:furious :furious :furious :lol
I thought I was important until I got Cancer and had to go to a cancer clinic.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2007, 11:07:06 PM »
I see a bunch of monkies with their hands over their eyes and ears.

Funny that they call themselves "conservatives" given their absolute refusal to conserve anything at all.

Ah well.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2007, 01:00:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
It very much matters how much CO2 is in the atmosphere, as it helps retain heat. Certainly it's the sun that causes the atmosphere to heat up, but CO2 makes it cool more slowly.

Lock a dog in a closed car in the heat of summer and it might be the sun that kills the animal, but it's the closed windows that make the difference.


Of the "greenhouse gases" which is the most abundant?

Hint... it's not CO2.
sand

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2007, 01:04:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
I think Michael Crichton was spot on. Those who have turned away from traditional religions are just creating new ones and the church of Global Warming is the most popular among them today.


I think Michael Crichton used to be a decent novelist, but now he's just another political hack.
sand

Offline CFYA

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 197
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2007, 02:05:53 AM »
What many people fail to realize is that global warming will lead ito a mini iceage when global ocean currents shutdown. Do your research......before you post your ignorance.

Offline ArkyAce

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
      • http://911-golf.com
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2007, 02:18:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
It very much matters how much CO2 is in the atmosphere, as it helps retain heat. Certainly it's the sun that causes the atmosphere to heat up, but CO2 makes it cool more slowly.

Lock a dog in a closed car in the heat of summer and it might be the sun that kills the animal, but it's the closed windows that make the difference.


Honestly the difference is the ******* that locked the dog in the car in the first place, and if the windows were down the dog would probably jump out of the car anyway.   And are we talking about a Polar Summer, Or Summer in Arkansas that is really frigging hot man!

Offline clerick

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1742
For all you rabid environmentalists
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2007, 02:21:13 AM »
My local weatherman struggles to get it right 3 days from now.  The atmosphere is an extremely complex system, for any one side to claim to truly know anything seems arrogant.