For all you rabid environmentalists

[phookat]

Originally posted by bustr
I'm not on a high enough horse. People in general allow themselves to be cowed by persons with titles, degrees, positions of authority and well articulated communication skills. Con Men know this aspect of the human mind and cow the unwashed unintelligent masses out of their hard earned money.

I am happy to see you display such a healthy sense of skepticism.  Really.  

Originally posted by bustr
Don't sell me scientists as a protected class of humanity because they toil for the higher good.

I wasn't.  Read my post again.  With comprehension this time, please.

Originally posted by bustr
Funny exactly how the legitimacy of any ideologies priesthood is established and maintained.

Are you religious?

[bustr]

No I'm against world class con jobs.

No one in the west or much of the rest of the world is against technology or alternative energy sources. But no one is for accepting any motion backwards from their current level of basic expectations where daily energy requirments as a direct indicator of their quality of life is concerned.  

Man made global warming is being blamed on us the unwashed masses and our expectations for energy use. The increase in our population to energy use can be shown to grow with the increased amounts of CO2 in the last 200 years if you want to interprit the data that way. But that helps with casting fear and guilt on those masses to stampede them to not think but want the "It" fixed.

Numbers of forcasts show the world going to heck at the least in about 40 years, but 2100 seems to be the safe target so no one will be alive who started all this garbage. It seems the energy usage forcasts are not accounting for the real fact about us humans that we will develop more efficient energy sources, technologies and probably have moved into hydrogen. World populations will be on the decline as more emerging world peoples quality of life improves and their women want educations over making babies.

We are not going to kill the planet in the next 40-50 years due to our energy consumption addictions pumping out CO2. Nature will be controling it indirectly just like population booms of animals eventualy decline dramaticly due to diaseas and starvation. In our case educated women don't want to reproduce on the levels their less educated sisters do.

But this is a situation ripe for a con job. The 21st century is supposed to become the new dawn of the age of secular humanity and scientific reason. This age wants to be a technocracy with a global ruling body if Man Made Global Warming can be leveraged to scare the unwashed masses into calling for the world elite to save them from the possibility of global doom a century away. (Ocracies always have a body of acoloyts to maintain and defend them. Usualy called priests. We used to call them religions.)

Technology, mass media and the internet are doing a 24x7 propaganda blitz on the world. The last 2 generations of first world school children have been indoctrinated to worship mother earth and science as the savior of all that is good. The only thing standing in the way is the baby boomer generation. Over the next 40 years we boomers will all die off. Populations will decline and all the current politicians and world egalitarians(scientists) of my generation will be in the ground and no one will remember what the bullshine was all about. This is how a great Con job works. The mark never nows it happened. Unless another con is watching..........

[Angus]

The planet has gone very close to that. Now we must of course test out what it can do with a little push

[lazs2]

akh..  so the link you show is nothing more than a huge excuse...it is a klinton style... "it depends on how you define is"   thing..  hundreds of scientists.. leaders in their field thought that man made particulate matter was going to cause an ice age.   co2 was rising but..  the suns activity was low...  

Suns activity increased and the ice age went away...man made particulate matter suddenly was nothing compared to the sun... now.. it is man made co2 driving the temps... the sun is ignored.. when the suns activity slows we will go into a cooling cycle and scientists will all pretend they didn't really say what they said about co2... they will point to the portions of their documents that say "we are not sure" and say..."see.. we never said absolutely that it would get hotter due to co2'

bustr says it much more elequently but... I have been around a while too... I have seen theories trotted out as fact and irrefuteable and worth "doing something" in the past.

Todays scientists talk with certainty about what will happen 100 years from now... as buster points out.... how could they have a clue?  how could they model what they still don't understand fully or model progress in human knowledge?  

scientists predicting disaster in 100 years?   100 years ago scientists felt that leeches were a good cure for people bleeding to death.   40 years ago they told me I was responsible for the next ice age in 1990.

I am more than skeptical... I look at their success rate for predicting doomsday scenarios... so far they have been right 0.0%  of the time.. why should this be different?  especially since they are using the same methods?

lazs

[Angus]

Lazs, again, without greenhouse effect, we'd have a worldwide ice age.
Same reason as Venus being warmer than Mercury, who is closer to the sun, - the difference being that mercury's highest temp doesn't touch Venuses mean temp. (100 min to 700 K max vs 730 as a mean, or basically 240 to 340 as a mean temp). So in short, one planet melts lead, while the one closest to the sun may sometimes promt comfortable tempereature.
As for the scientists, - they will never have any clue about what is to happen, if they do like you, - refuse anything, say anything is in vain anyway, and not think too much about it.

[lazs2]

angus.. without a certain level of suns activity we would have an ice age.

lazs

[phookat]

Originally posted by bustr
No I'm against world class con jobs.

OK, so you think religion is a "world class con job".  Fair enough.  Personally I agree that religion is completely false, but not a complete con job.  Some people who spread religion are frauds, and others actually do believe it.

Now on global warming, do you have any particular reason to think it is a complete fraudulent scam, except for the fact that you disagree with its conclusions?  Do you think that 99% of the scientists are knowingly colluding in a big lie in order to delude the "unwashed masses" and gain power? Science, remember, is different from religion.  If some scientists have access to contrary data and analysis, they can publish their findings and those findings won't be ignored.  People as high up as the director of NASA are saying global warming is false.  So there's no big conspiracy here as you'd like to believe.  There may very well be legitimate controversy with the findings, but you're not going to contribute to that with some off-the-cuff intuitive remarks.

Your posts, bustr, look a lot like some kind of demagogic Maoist propaganda.  "Join the revolution!  Overthrow the ruling intellectual elite!"

Originally posted by bustr
The last 2 generations of first world school children have been indoctrinated to worship mother earth and science as the savior of all that is good.

LMAO.  Such a statement betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what science is.  It's like saying we "worship" constitutional democracy as a "divine right of rule".  And I don't know about you, but it seems to me that far more kids these days are being homeschooled and indoctrinated into bronze-age myths at the explicit expense of science...and the rest of the kids don't give a damn about science anyway.

[Jackal1]

THIS JUST IN!
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"China overtakes U.S. as top CO2 emitter: Dutch agency
Jun 20, 2007

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - China has overtaken the United States as the top emitter of carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas, because of surging energy use amid an economic boom, a Dutch government-funded agency said on Wednesday.

Other experts have estimated that China will only surpass the United States in coming years. The rise to number one emitter may put pressure on Beijing to do more to help a U.N.-led fight against global warming.
Top US stories
   
"China's 2006 carbon dioxide emissions surpassed those of the United States by 8 percent," the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency said in a statement. In 2005, it said China's emissions were 2 percent below those of the United States.

"With this, China tops the list of CO2 emitting countries for the first time," it said. Almost all scientists say rising amounts of carbon dioxide will bring more droughts, floods, desertification, heatwaves, disease and rising seas.

The report, based on data on energy use and cement production, reckoned China's carbon dioxide emissions totaled 6.2 billion metric tons in 2006. Of the total, 550 million tons was from cement, a main source of industrial emissions.

U.S. emissions totaled 5.8 billion metric tons last year, of which 50 million tons was from cement, it said. The report said the European Union was in third place on the ranking ahead of Russia, India and Japan.

The International Energy Agency (IEA), which advises rich nations, said in April China was likely to surpass the United States as the top carbon dioxide emitter in 2007 or 2008.

The Dutch agency said its data were based on fossil fuel use estimated by BP, cement data from the U.S. Geological Survey and energy use data until 2004 from the IEA. Carbon dioxide accounts for about 75 percent of greenhouse gases.

China's economy has registered double-digit growth for four years in a row and expanded by 11.1 percent in the first quarter compared to a year earlier due to booming investments and exports."
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Now hear this!
 All Albore worshipers, Greenies and U.N. soothsayers will report to a China based forum immediately!
When you get them convinced, get back to us.

[Curval]

Nobody ever said on this board that Global Climate change was exclusively a US issue.....ever.

[soda72]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Now hear this!
 All Albore worshipers, Greenies and U.N. soothsayers will report to a China based forum immediately!
When you get them convinced, get back to us.

They still blame the US,  only now it's the United States fault for not setting an example for China....

[Curval]

Originally posted by soda72
They still blame the US,  only now it's the United States fault for not setting an example for China....

You poor victims.

[Angus]

Originally posted by lazs2
angus.. without a certain level of suns activity we would have an ice age.

lazs

Without greenhouseffect we could easily have much more sun and yet an iceage.

[MORAY37]

It's amazing, watching some people on these boards.  Somehow, I'm not surprised.  

On the China-US CO2 emissions...
Open up your head for a minute and ask yourself one question... how, could a country that is basically filled to the brim with poor people that live in the country...overtake the United States in CO2 production?  (the United States still leads in per capita production.. 19.46 thousand metric tons/1000 citizens to China's 2.52 thousand metric tons/1000 citizens.(Nationmaster, 2004))  Perhaps all of you denialists, that, surely live real close to that WALMART, should walk in a look at the labels on everything there.  MADE IN CHINA.  Now, I will post an article outlining my point.

Trade Imbalance Shifts U.S. Carbon Emissions to China, Boosts Global Total
December 1, 2005

BOULDER—The growth of Chinese imports in the U.S. economy boosted the total emissions of carbon dioxide (a primary greenhouse gas) from the two countries by over 700 million metric tons between 1997 and 2003, according to a study published online in the journal Energy Policy. The analysis, prepared by two scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, suggests that American emissions of carbon dioxide in 2003 would have been 6% higher if the United States had manufactured the products that it imported from China. Meanwhile, China's 2003 emissions would have been 14% lower had it not produced goods for the United States.

"These results show the importance of world trade in accounting for the emissions that drive climate change," says Shui Bin, an environmental policy analyst who authored the Energy Policy paper with geochemist Robert Harriss. Their research was supported by the National Science Foundation, NCAR’s primary sponsor.

The world’s two biggest emitters of greenhouse gases are the United States (about 25% of the global total) and China (about 15%). The Shui and Harriss study implies that the United States is indirectly responsible for even more carbon dioxide than widely perceived.

Because Chinese manufacturing relies heavily on coal and less-efficient technologies, it produces more greenhouse-gas emissions on average than the United States for a given product. Emissions in 2002 and 2003 rose at 8-9% a year in China and about 1% a year in the United States. If all of the U.S. imports from China had been produced domestically, then U.S. greenhouse emissions would have risen at 1.5% to 2% per year.

(National Center for Atmospheric Research, 2005)


Policymakers, aware that our "need for everything material" has led to this, want to dissuade you from looking at these reports.  Bush, himself, denies Kyoto, saying nations like China must also adhere to the concept.  What he uses are straight line statistics to prove his case.. and I'm sure he will laud this news that China overtook us in the same way.  What he denies is WE made China overtake the United States.

As citizens, we must have the ability to open our eyes and accept our blame.  This nation should be innovating it's way to a place in the next century, NOT lunging in a lazy haze of our now FORMER greatness.  With all that manufacturing, and now an upper middle class developing in China, seriously, how long do you think we have at the top?  You are seriously delusional if you don't see China as the next "Top Dog" in the world.  We, the disposable society, created our biggest threat, and we are selling our country away to them.  China holds more of our debt than any other single nation.  

OPEN YOUR EYES... THINK CRITICALLY.. THEN SPEAK, STUPID.

[AKH]

But it's so much easier for the deniers to make facts up and trust that people will believe them if they are repeated enough.

“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”

[Toad]

^

That can certainly cut both ways you know; there's a real inconvenient truth for you.