Japanese debate on Nuclear Bombings

[Slash27]

Originally posted by Boroda
Victory in Europe USSR smashed Japanese continental (Kwantun) army with full strength of veteran troops who marched all the way from Volga to Vienna.

I remember reading about that.

[Elfie]

Actually Boroda, the Emperor never mentions the Soviets as a reason for Japan's surrender.

If we have someone who can read Japanese, they can verify the translation from this page at Wikipedia. Copies of the speech are shown there in the original Japanese text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyokuon-h%C5%8Ds%C5%8D

An English translation of the Emperor's surrender speech that was broadcast over radio to Japan.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Imperial_Rescript_on_Surrender

TO MY GOOD AND LOYAL SUBJECTS:

After deeply pondering the general trends of the world and the current conditions of our Empire, I intend to effect a conclusion to the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.

My subjects, I have ordered the Imperial Government to inform the four Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that our Empire is willing to accept the provisions of their Joint Declaration.

The striving for peace and well-being of our imperial subjects, and the sharing of common happiness and prosperity amongst tens of thousands of nations is the duty left by our Imperial Ancestors, and I am the one who has not forgotten about this duty.

The Empire declared war against the United States and Great Britain for the desire to preserve, by ourselves, the Empire's existence in East Asia and for the region's stability. As to the infringement of other nation's sovereignty and invasion of other territorial entities, those were not my original intent.

By now, the fighting has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the gallantry of our naval and land military forces, the diligence and assiduity of hundreds of civil service officers, and the public devotion and service of one hundred million of our people, the situation in the war has not turned for the better, and the general trends of the world are not advantageous to us either.

In addition, the enemy has recently used a most cruel explosive. The frequent killing of innocents and the effect of destitution it entails are incalculable. Should we continue fighting in the war, it would cause not only the complete Annihilation of our nation, but also the destruction of the human civilization. With this in mind, how should I save billions of our subjects and their posterity, and atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why I ordered the Imperial Government to accept the Joint Declaration.

I, from the start, have worked with our various Allied nations towards the liberation of East Asia, and I cannot refrain from expressing my deepest sense of regret to our Allies. The thought of our Imperial subjects dying in the battlefields, sacrificing themselves in the line of duty, and those who died in vain and their relatives, pains my heart and body to the point of fragmentation.

As for the bearing of the wounds of war, the tragedies of war, and the welfare of the those who lost their families and careers, it is the objects of our profound solicitude. From today hereafter, the Empire will endure excruciating hardships. I am keenly aware of the feelings of my subjects, but in accordance to the dictates of fate, I am willing to endure the unendurable, tolerate the intolerable, for peace to last thousands of generations.

Having always protected the Imperial State in general, I rely on the loyal subject's integrity and sincerity, and I shall always be with you subjects.

If we become stimulated by sensations, and begin to engender needless complications, engage in fraternal contention and strike or create confusion, we will become astray and lose the confidence of the world. We must rally the nation, and continue from generation to generation to entrench the imperishability of this sacred state.

Aware of the heavy responsibility and the long road ahead, we must focus completely on the future's construction, follow strictly the ways of our noble morals with determination and resolution. We swear to foster and spread the glory and essence of our Imperial State, so we will not fall behind the evolution of the world. It is my hope that my subjects will understand my intentions.

[Elfie]

It's no wonder the Red Army rolled over the Japanese Army in Manchuria. The Soviets held nearly a 3-1 advantage in men, nearly 5 - 1 in armored vehicles (3700 T-34s alone vs mostly light tanks and armored cars), better than 3 - 1 in artillery pieces, and a 2.5 - 1 advantage in aircraft. 80 Soviet divisions against 25 Japanese and 8 Chinese divisions. Additionally many of the Japanese units were understrength, poorly trained , poorly equipped and had many raw recruits.

If the Red Army hadn't rolled over the Japanese in Manchuria.......well, something would have been terribly wrong.

Basically the Red Army beat up a Japanese Army that wasn't equipped or trained to fight the kind of maneuver warfare that the Red Army learned fighting the Germans.

One more thing. The majority of the best Japanese units had been transferred out of Manchuria during the 3 previous years of the war to fight the Americans in the island hopping campaign and were mostly destroyed in that fighting.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Boroda
Japanese continental army was defeated by USSR in 2 weeks, [sarcasm]while you guys spent three years crawling upon some useless god-forgotten islands.  [/sarcasm] Try to find Hirohito's adress to the nation that was played on the radio on Aug 15th 1945.

JFYI: Germans surrendered to Allied forces on May 9th, and Keitel was really surprised to see French officers there, saying "What the hell are THEY doing here?!" According to your logics - Germans surrendered to USSR, not to the Allies.

I'm really biting my tongue on this one.   My grandfather fought on Guam, Okinawa and Occupation of China.   I don't find it funny, nor would anyone else.    You must really be a mental case, I'm convinced of it.

[Rino]

Originally posted by Boroda
Read Hirohito's adress and then please make conclusions. Bombs were scary but not vital. It's obvious that Bombs were dropped to scare Stalin and keep him from wiping Western "allies" off the European continent in 1945 in a matter of weeks.

/*hehe hehe i love provocations*/

     Just out of curiousity, if the Russians were so tough, why did Stalin
spend almost 2 years crying for a second front from the West?  I'd also
be fascinated to learn how much Soviet equipment was sent to the west
to help them defeat the Nazis.

     Just off the cuff, I'd say you do a great imitation of a hot air balloon
there Comrade.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'm really biting my tongue on this one.   My grandfather fought on Guam, Okinawa and Occupation of China.   I don't find it funny, nor would anyone else.    You must really be a mental case, I'm convinced of it.

Disregard him. He represents the worst of his culture and indoctrination when he crawls into the bottle like that. It's as bad as the most blatant skin head nazi wannabe could be.

I do not cast aspersions on the soviet troops who fought and died resisting the nazis's. They did a heck of a job and paid a price for it that in many ways exceeds what the rest of the allies did. The fact that their own leadership put them in the position to lose all those casualties, civilian and military does not diminish the sacrifice. It just reflects on the leadership they suffered under and the results afterwards.

[Rolex]

Originally posted by Boroda
...and then Soviet Foreign Affairs Ministry refused to pass Japanese peace offers to the US.

Truman knew of the Japanese emperor suing for peace through the USSR. Stalin and Truman talked about it on July 18th, the same day Truman told Churchill about the successful test of the the atomic bomb. He told Stalin about it the next day, but Stalin failed to grasp the importance of it.

The emperor may not have mentioned it, but Truman said he expected Japan to give up when the USSR entered the war.

[Laurie]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
true,
it change nothing.

Are you german as your profile suggests?

Just be glad your homeland lost before the bomb was ready. Rather than try to pick fault in the actions of countries in a war that lead to the situation of the use of an atomic weapon, thanks to the actions of your own nation.

[Laurie]

Borado if you have this passionate vendetta against anything other than RED,RED,RED why bother using this bulletin board?

It gets me in hysterics how you can admire a man who on many levels was as barbarous as the Nazi's, yes your 'idol' Josef Stalin.

And........ saying that Stalin could wipe the Allies out of Europe in weeks is well,

Utter  under-educated, propagandiristic(
The second the soviets would have attacked, The U.S. and britain would simply use Atomic weaponry technologies (which you lacked) to toattaly obliterate anything you treasured.

Good Day.
Hul367th.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Boroda
Read Hirohito's adress and then please make conclusions. Bombs were scary but not vital. It's obvious that Bombs were dropped to scare Stalin and keep him from wiping Western "allies" off the European continent in 1945 in a matter of weeks.

/*hehe hehe i love provocations*/

LOL I read this as a quote in a response as I must have missed this particular post and had to got back to it.

First I was gonna say you gotta be borderline alcohol poisoning drunk.

but now I see your only provoking

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Maverick


I do not cast aspersions on the soviet troops who fought and died resisting the nazis's. They did a heck of a job and paid a price for it that in many ways exceeds what the rest of the allies did. The fact that their own leadership put them in the position to lose all those casualties, civilian and military does not diminish the sacrifice. It just reflects on the leadership they suffered under and the results afterwards.

I'll drink to that
No question the Valor of russian troops.

But then they were properly motivated too.
Face possible death going forward. Or certain death going backwards

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Laurie


It gets me in hysterics how you can admire a man who on many levels was as barbarous as the Nazi's, yes your 'idol' Josef Stalin.

And........ saying that Stalin could wipe the Allies out of Europe in weeks is well,

Utter  under-educated, propagandiristic(
The second the soviets would have attacked, The U.S. and britain would simply use Atomic weaponry technologies (which you lacked) to toattaly obliterate anything you treasured.

Good Day.
Hul367th.

Remember the war with Germany ended before the testing of the Bomb.

But even without that it would not have been so easy to "wipe the allies out of Europe in a matter of weeks"

We didnt suffer from the same problems Germany did.
Besides material shortages we werent suffering from we had one main thing going for us the Germans didnt.

Our Commanders werent nearly as hamstrung as the german commanders were by Hitler.

Has it not been for Hitler The allies in the east or west would have found it much more difficult to defeat Germany if the german commanders were granted the same kind of latitude the Allied commanders it he west had

In many ways.on both the easterna and wester fronts
 Hitler.
Was the allies best ally

[FrodeMk3]

Origanally posted by DREDIOCK

Remember the war with Germany ended before the testing of the Bomb.

But even without that it would not have been so easy to "wipe the allies out of Europe in a matter of weeks"

We didnt suffer from the same problems Germany did.
Besides material shortages we werent suffering from we had one main thing going for us the Germans didnt.

Our Commanders werent nearly as hamstrung as the german commanders were by Hitler.

Has it not been for Hitler The allies in the east or west would have found it much more difficult to defeat Germany if the german commanders were granted the same kind of latitude the Allied commanders it he west had

In many ways.on both the easterna and wester fronts
Hitler.
Was the allies best ally
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have probably said, that it was the fact that neither the natural resource base that we used, nor our Industry, could easily be hampered by enemy action.

When the Germans' were having to construct aircraft in sub-assemblies, and assemble them in abandoned salt mines because of allied bombing, We were finishing up production of P-38's outside on nice days in Burbank.
We didn't have to constantly find people to work in our war industries, because half a shift at the factory was killed in the previous' nights' firestorm.

And, here's one for Boroda: Yes, the Soviet conventional army was mighty; But, in the end, it was also what caused them to admit capitulation in the Cold War. It was too expensive to maintain, even for a totalitarian police state. Eventually, something had to give. And it did. The former USSR was damn near reduced to Third-world status. Many argue that it was, with all the ethnic strife that resulted, for a while it was like Africa-North.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I'll drink to that
No question the Valor of russian troops.

But then they were properly motivated too.
Face possible death going forward. Or certain death going backwards

Especially when the pansies in the Soviet Army, stood at the Gates of many Polish cities while the Germans slaughtered more Poles.  

Piss on em, they were a circumstance of flawed Ideology.   They didn't do anything against Japan.   NOTHING.    Hell, even in 1905 the Russian "Navy" was pwned by the Japanese.    The Soviets could never "seal the deal" against the Japanese.

[Gh0stFT]

Originally posted by Laurie
Are you german as your profile suggests?

Just be glad your homeland lost before the bomb was ready. Rather than try to pick fault in the actions of countries in a war that lead to the situation of the use of an atomic weapon, thanks to the actions of your own nation.

The today actions of your country will be judged in 70 years from people
with a complete different perpective as today. And this People will have the
right to judge it no matter what country they are from.
Everything else would lead you know where -> VERBOTEN! State

but nice try to throw the Nazi card at me.
Can we go back to the Topic?