Author Topic: Katrina 2nd Anniversary  (Read 1952 times)

Offline JBA

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Katrina 2nd Anniversary
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2007, 09:15:40 AM »
Some have had no problem rebuiling,,perhaps they have a better work ethic, then the, "what has the govt. done for me lately lay about groups"

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0609,shaftel,72328,2.html

Vietnamese-owned businesses have reopened.........

New Orleans neighborhoods after Katrina and the federal government's reluctance to commit funds to the reconstruction of the whole of New Orleans, the Vietnamese community has gone ahead with not only returning, but presenting a plan for an enhanced neighborhood. "From day one [the city council] has been fighting for every neighborhood to return. They may have jump-started that process," Willard-Lewis said.
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2007, 09:23:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by JBA
Some have had no problem rebuiling,,perhaps they have a better work ethic, then the, "what has the govt. done for me lately lay about groups"

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0609,shaftel,72328,2.html

Vietnamese-owned businesses have reopened.........

New Orleans neighborhoods after Katrina and the federal government's reluctance to commit funds to the reconstruction of the whole of New Orleans, the Vietnamese community has gone ahead with not only returning, but presenting a plan for an enhanced neighborhood. "From day one [the city council] has been fighting for every neighborhood to return. They may have jump-started that process," Willard-Lewis said.


It's a running theme.  While many people were running around rampant in the LA riots taking whatever they wanted, the korean shop owners were defending their shops with force.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2007, 09:37:05 AM »
Now I am a media hack?   I seen the vids and they weren't from channel whatever or cnn... they were the ones that bloggers and private citizens took...

I seen police looting a walmart... I seen feral aholes looting.   I seen what the scum did to the stadium they were in.

I am told they are good people with a few bad apples "just like dixon"  BS... Dixon cops wouldn't loot our walmart.   We would shoot looters here.

Now I am told that it is not the fault of the people who had no insurance.    that they were unable to buy it.

If I was unable to buy flood insurance in a flood area.. that would be one HUGE frigging clue.

We have people here in flood plains that don't have insurance... they buy a house with water marks half way up the door in 3 or four levels and then don't buy flood insurance because it is "expensive" and then... first flood.. they are on tv wondering when I am gonna get there and fix it all for em.

Far as I am concerned... the people of NO have already got all the help I am willing to give em.... BILLIONS by the way...  

If and when it happens again they should get nothing.

lazs

Offline Traveler

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Katrina 2nd Anniversary
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2007, 09:50:41 AM »
The Federal Government demonstrated it’s inability to cope with a large disaster post 9/11 with it’s response to Katrina.  This was despite being given carte blanche to prepare for the next attack.  Katrina was in effect the next attack.  It was a great test, it proved that all levels of Government were ineffective and failed it people.  

Today the city of New Orleans is back in business for the most part, perhaps it shouldn’t be, but it is.  The out laying districts still look pretty much like they did 2 weeks after the flood waters receded  But the City, it’s hotels and restaurants, are up and running .  

One suggestion to help the recovery might be to move the three branches of our Federal Government to those out laying areas of New Orleans.  I’m pretty sure that within a day that fat bloated Government would get the water running and the flush toilets working and the lights turned back on.  If they had to live and work there. But that leads to a larger question………

Should New Orleans ever be allowed to fully recover?  That is the question that needs to be answered.  Many people point to Holland and say that we should follow their method of levy building.  Holland has had some bad weather, however, they have never experienced a category 5 hurricane.  In fact they have never experienced a hurricane of any kind and most likely never will.  

But following Holland’s example is exactly what we should do with New Orleans.  Holland gave up the idea of holding back the water long ago.  They let nature take it’s course and large areas were allowed to flood, Cities were moved or relocated and a minimal  dike and levy system was put in place.  They still build homes in flood planes however, the homes that are built in these areas must float.      

Spending billions  and trillions of dollars on a levy system in New Orleans that will take decades to be in a position to withstand a category 5 just makes no sense.  New Orleans will be hit again by a category 5 hurricane within the next 10 years.  That’s a given as hurricane’s become more numerous do to climatic changes that everyone agrees is taking place.  

Why encourage people to repopulate an area  that is going to be hit again and will suffer just as bad, I doubt that our fat bloated Federal Government will improve in it’s ability to respond in the next 10 years.  Americans are to busy being distracted to change it’s leaders.  We re-elect the same type of people at each election.  

We may see a change in our government leaders  if al Qaeda is able to make good on it’s promise to commit another terrorist attack in the United States.  Something that kills tens of thousands rather then just thousands of people.  I’m sure that then leadership will change.  

Or they are all forced to resign following arrest in a public restroom for seeking gay sex.  That seems to be the most popular thing they do today.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2007, 10:02:08 AM »
so... if a hurricane destroyed the levees in holland it would be the governments fault?

I hear what you are saying traveler.   I am just one who says that the people and government of that state have failed themselves and that the city should be there only at individual risk.

If you want to live in such an area... get insurance... If you can't get insurance or it is too expensive... that is one frigging large clue.

I have heard the hand wringers... it is all about "love" of NO... not about if it is a good idea or not but that it is history and such... fine... turn it into a museum.  buy out the people who live in the area and don't sell land back.

To me it is just a larger version of what happens here from time to time in the delta flood area.    flood insurance is expensive here and some of the people inherited the homes...

Does that mean that I have to pay when they flood?

There should be no fema.  it is worthless as has been proven.   We can do it ourselves without fema.

lazs

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2007, 10:15:08 AM »
NO is incredibly important to the economic well being of the US. Oil, commodities, shipping.. you name it flows through this vital area. It is in the best interests of the United States to maintain a viable city and a population in NO.

It has also been pointed out that the levees and flood control in general are the responsibility of the Federal Govt. I once bought a home that was deemed to be in a flood plain. I could not get the loan without flood insurance. I'm pretty sure this was a federal mandate, but I may be wrong about that.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2007, 10:27:13 AM »
You don't need the kind of city that was NO to use the port.   Those who can't afford insurance don't need to be there.

Levees may be the responsibilty of the feds...

Floods will still happen tho... they happen here and it is always the levees that are to blame...  levees are not some simple wall that stretches a mile or so... they are almost impossible to maintain.   miles and miles of em and it is often hard to determine if they are in good shape or not or... how much water they can hold back.

Here we go by flood not hurricane... 1 in 25 year storm   1 in 50... whatever.

There they used cat.... cat 2... cat 3..  

Point is.. the levees will never be perfect soooo... here when the storm reaches somewhere even close to the levee capacity.. people are told to evacuate.

In NO... the hurricane was OVER what the levees were designed for PEOPLE WERE TOLD TO EVACUATE.

they didn't.   they didn't have insurance either.   how is this anyones fault except theirs?

What would you have us do?  rebuild the levees to.... to what?   cat 3 again?

cat 6?  have a constant watch run up and down the levees and babysit on our dime?   what if a cat 6 hurricane tears it all down again?

lazs

Offline Tiger

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« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2007, 10:46:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Traveler


   

Spending billions  and trillions of dollars on a levy system in New Orleans that will take decades to be in a position to withstand a category 5 just makes no sense.  New Orleans will be hit again by a category 5 hurricane within the next 10 years.  That’s a given as hurricane’s become more numerous do to climatic changes that everyone agrees is taking place.  



Yes because the predictions that the 2006 and 2007 seasons would be worse than 2005 have come true.

Offline 2bighorn

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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2007, 11:21:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tiger
Yes because the predictions that the 2006 and 2007 seasons would be worse than 2005 have come true.
No serious climatologist ever made that predictions. It's just a myth spread by media and used by both, those who are pro and those against global warming theory to further their political agendas.

Quote

Consensus Statements by International Workshop on Tropical Cyclones-VI (IWTC-VI) Participants :

   1. Though there is evidence both for and against the existence of a detectable anthropogenic signal in the tropical cyclone climate record to date, no firm conclusion can be made on this point.
   2. No individual tropical cyclone can be directly attributed to climate change.
   3. The recent increase in societal impact from tropical cyclones has largely been caused by rising concentrations of population and infrastructure in coastal regions.
   4. Tropical cyclone wind-speed monitoring has changed dramatically over the last few decades, leading to difficulties in determining accurate trends.
   5. There is an observed multi-decadal variability of tropical cyclones in some regions whose causes, whether natural, anthropogenic or a combination, are currently being debated. This variability makes detecting any long-term trends in tropical cyclone activity difficult.
   6. It is likely that some increase in tropical cyclone peak wind-speed and rainfall will occur if the climate continues to warm. Model studies and theory project a 3-5% increase in wind-speed per degree Celsius increase of tropical sea surface temperatures.
   7. There is an inconsistency between the small changes in wind-speed projected by theory and modeling versus large changes reported by some observational studies.
   8. Although recent climate model simulations project a decrease or no change in global tropical cyclone numbers in a warmer climate, there is low confidence in this projection. In addition, it is unknown how tropical cyclone tracks or areas of impact will change in the future.
   9. Large regional variations exist in methods used to monitor tropical cyclones. Also, most regions have no measurements by instrumented aircraft. These significant limitations will continue to make detection of trends difficult.
  10. If the projected rise in sea level due to global warming occurs, then the vulnerability to tropical cyclone storm surge flooding would increase.

source: NOAA



Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Far as I am concerned... the people of NO have already got all the help I am willing to give em.... BILLIONS by the way...
You know what, I prefer to see billions spent for rebuilding NO rather than Iraq...


Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
If you want to live in such an area... get insurance... If you can't get insurance or it is too expensive... that is one frigging large clue.
That's like crying about gun restriction laws and residing in Solano County. That is one frigging large clue.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2007, 11:24:55 AM »
I think everyone that lives in a 100 year flood plain, on a barrier island, in an area where tornados occur, or even on an earthquake fault line should get a brand new bigger home in a prime gated community than the one they lose should mother nature ever have the audacity to take out their original home.

After all, it's not their fault that they chose to live there; the rest of us are to blame.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2007, 11:26:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
That's like crying about gun restriction laws and residing in Solano County. That is one frigging large clue.


Well, YEAH! Because privately purchasing insurance is just like having one of your constitutional rights abrogated.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline JBA

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« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2007, 12:20:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Traveler
But following Holland’s example .................Holland gave up the idea of holding back the water long ago.  They let nature take it’s course and large areas were allowed to flood, Cities were moved or relocated



In other words...."don't rebuild NO"
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Offline Masherbrum

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Katrina 2nd Anniversary
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2007, 03:48:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
NO is incredibly important to the economic well being of the US. Oil, commodities, shipping.. you name it flows through this vital area. It is in the best interests of the United States to maintain a viable city and a population in NO.

It has also been pointed out that the levees and flood control in general are the responsibility of the Federal Govt. I once bought a home that was deemed to be in a flood plain. I could not get the loan without flood insurance. I'm pretty sure this was a federal mandate, but I may be wrong about that.
I strongly disagree.   The proper thing would be to ONLY build up the Port Authority of New Orleans.   Build subsequent housing for the Port Authority and put a fork in this never ending money pit.   Nothing good will come of this happening again.   If they pull out of Iraq, that's even more money going to education for my 5 year old, and everyone else.  

These two pictures should set the tone, two different yards:






IMO, put a fork in NO.
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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2007, 04:13:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Traveler
But following Holland’s example is exactly what we should do with New Orleans.  Holland gave up the idea of holding back the water long ago.  They let nature take it’s course and large areas were allowed to flood, Cities were moved or relocated and a minimal  dike and levy system was put in place.  They still build homes in flood planes however, the homes that are built in these areas must float.      

Spending billions  and trillions of dollars on a levy system in New Orleans that will take decades to be in a position to withstand a category 5 just makes no sense.  New Orleans will be hit again by a category 5 hurricane within the next 10 years.  That’s a given as hurricane’s become more numerous do to climatic changes that everyone agrees is taking place.  

Why encourage people to repopulate an area  that is going to be hit again and will suffer just as bad, I doubt that our fat bloated Federal Government will improve in it’s ability to respond in the next 10 years.  Americans are to busy being distracted to change it’s leaders.  We re-elect the same type of people at each election.  

We may see a change in our government leaders  if al Qaeda is able to make good on it’s promise to commit another terrorist attack in the United States.  Something that kills tens of thousands rather then just thousands of people.  I’m sure that then leadership will change.  


Excellent post.

In addition to the Holland example, let's look at San Francisco.     Again, in 1906 after the Earthquake demolished the city, it needed to be rebuilt.   For the first 3-4 months they had follow "code" to make the structures "tolerant of earthquakes".   Only "non-combustible" materials were to be used for framework.    After the 3-4 months, the City and politicians "were upset with how long it was taking to rebuild".  

So, the contractors were therefore going back to building "all wood structures".  

Take the infamous Valencia Street Hotel collapse in the Quake of 1906.   In the 1800's a lake was filled in, and this hotel was built on top of a part of that lake.   When the quake hit the ground underneath the hotel experienced "liquefaction".    The lake being earlier filled in with rubble, sand and rocks mixed with the water and the building collapsed.   The first 3 floors had 200 trapped underground.    The problem is that when the Quake occurred, the underground water system had a lot of breaks.    As a result those 200 victims drowned.    

You'd think they would have learned from this, but they didn't.    Let's turn our attention to the Marina District.    After the fires had demolished 70% of the city.    It was time to rebuild.    All of the rubble and debris from the "cleanup" was dumped at the water's edge, and they built the Marina District on top.    Even bodies are buried there to this day.   They built upon "filled in" ground.    Jump to the 1989 and where was the majority of the damage?    The Marina District.   Not only did the ground undergo "liquefcation", the buildings that burned or collapsed, were the very same buildings that "were built after the "codes" were abolished during the rebuilding in 1906.  

Why is this similar to NO?   100+ years of experience is staring people dead in the eye, and they'd rather have it happen again.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 04:52:51 PM by Masherbrum »
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2007, 04:41:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum  Not only did the ground undergo "liquefecation" , the buildings that burned or collapsed, were the very same buildings that "were built after the "codes" were abolished during the rebuilding in 1906.  



Muahahaha :)


Sorry Karaya I cannot let this pass :D