Author Topic: For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America  (Read 2548 times)

Offline Neubob

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2007, 06:23:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Where the HELL do you get the idea I'm talking about appeasment?

The system being used now DOES...NOT...WORK. It does NOT slow or reduce the numbers of illegal immigration. It does NOT in any effective manner send the ones already here BACK. You put up a fence they'll just come with wirecutters. Send out armed and trigger-happy patrols then you're just escalating it even further. The "Solutions" being introduced ARE NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM. They're only adding TO it.

If something doesn't work, you FIX it. The system needs to be CHANGED, and one needs to be found that WILL solve these problems.

Instead of controlling WHO can get in, the government should instead focus more attention on monitoring WHAT THEY DO ONCE THEY'RE IN. NOWHERE HAVE I *EVER* said "Let them in and @$#& the consequences." Read me a little more carefully and you'll see that EVERY TIME I've said "Easier to get in, but closer regulation once they do." I do NOT see what's so threatening about easing entry requirements if the government instead concentrates on regulating their activities IN the country.

If it's easier for someone to enter the country legally, they will be MORE LIKELY to declare themselves to the authorities, which will then make it EASIER for the government to keep tabs on their activities and if there ARE problems easier for them to be dealt with. It's NOT a perfect system but the one we've got isn't doing any better a job.

I'm not saying make the Dept. of Immigration back into some guy sitting at the gates with a logbook taking down names, but with all of their resources focused on keeping people OUT it's only making their jobs harder.


A pipe dream.

You loosen the restrictions, more pour through. Once they're here, how do you propose the government keep tabs on them? How do you propose the government should enforce the laws? How do you propose the government should deal with those who use your lax entry requirements to just enter and immediately blow off the rules? How?

They get in on their own, as it stands, and the government is helpless. How do you propose to empower the government by making it legal? You gonna take down addresses? Names? Install tracking devices? You gonna tell employers to only employ those that adhere to your rules? You gonna give them ID cards?

You'll succeed in letting more in. That I don't doubt. Once you do that, they'll just continue to do what they've always been doing because, why not? In the end, you've given them just what they want, and all the freedom in the world to do as they please here.

You're right, the current system is not effective, but your solution is just plain silly. "We can't control them at the border so let's let them in and control them inside the country..."

"my door won't stop a burglar so I'll just talk him down once he's in my living room."

Brilliant.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 06:28:07 PM by Neubob »

Offline Cypher

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2007, 06:27:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Yeah Dago, because I'm SURE legal residents aren't responsible for death and injury in this country.


For the purposes of this discussion, what legal residents do is irrelivent. the point is, what the illegals do would not happen if our borders were enforced as they would not be here.

Offline AWMac

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2007, 06:27:28 PM »
"Remember the Alamo."

Keeps ringing in my head for some reason.

Mac

Offline Holden McGroin

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2007, 06:36:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AWMac
"Remember the Alamo."

Keeps ringing in my head for some reason.

Mac


'Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee' seems more appropriate.  That's the last time the residents of North America allowed unrestricted immigration.
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Offline Donzo

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2007, 07:16:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Mac,

How nice it worked out for you. But for some people it hasn't, and that does STILL  not address the issue that this wonderful, perfect, immaculate system hasn't stopped the flow of illegal entry, because if it DID we wouldn't be having this conversation in the FIRST place. Or do I need to go back and quote all the figures posted at the beginning of this thread to remind everyone there's still a problem here?


Saxman,

It worked out for Mac because he did what he was supposed to do.

Do you really think that the people who sneak over the border have really tried to follow the rules?  I think the opposite is true and they probably do not even know or care if there are rules.

Offline FrodeMk3

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2007, 07:26:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Where the HELL do you get the idea I'm talking about appeasment?

The system being used now DOES...NOT...WORK. It does NOT slow or reduce the numbers of illegal immigration. It does NOT in any effective manner send the ones already here BACK. You put up a fence they'll just come with wirecutters. Send out armed and trigger-happy patrols then you're just escalating it even further. The "Solutions" being introduced ARE NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM. They're only adding TO it.

If something doesn't work, you FIX it. The system needs to be CHANGED, and one needs to be found that WILL solve these problems.

Instead of controlling WHO can get in, the government should instead focus more attention on monitoring WHAT THEY DO ONCE THEY'RE IN. NOWHERE HAVE I *EVER* said "Let them in and @$#& the consequences." Read me a little more carefully and you'll see that EVERY TIME I've said "Easier to get in, but closer regulation once they do." I do NOT see what's so threatening about easing entry requirements if the government instead concentrates on regulating their activities IN the country.

If it's easier for someone to enter the country legally, they will be MORE LIKELY to declare themselves to the authorities, which will then make it EASIER for the government to keep tabs on their activities and if there ARE problems easier for them to be dealt with. It's NOT a perfect system but the one we've got isn't doing any better a job.

I'm not saying make the Dept. of Immigration back into some guy sitting at the gates with a logbook taking down names, but with all of their resources focused on keeping people OUT it's only making their jobs harder.


Okay, I know that It's hot enough to BBQ a side o'beef in here, but this was something that you said that caught my eye, sax.

One of the things' in this country that is jealously gaurded(and fought over, every day) are our freedoms and privacy. Introducing any kind of legislation that specially controls' and 'regulates' activity, gives the current government powers that the founding fathers did not intend for them to have.(Do you think that Ben Franklin would have voted for the 'Patriot' act?)

The other thing is, At some point the U.S. Justice system has to be kept from more compromise than it's already suffered. Simply put: If a citizen or national of a foreign country enters the borders of the U.S., and willingly avoids the normal diplomatic avenues of either achieving U.S. Citizenship, or a residence Visa, then those people should be expelled, as stated in our laws. If we only selectively enforce these laws, as many say we should in Jesus's case, we set forth a precedent which could well nigh be the undoing of our country. And, as some other posters' have pointed out with quite a few numbers thrown up on the BBS here, Due to a lack of enforcement of our current laws, we are starting to feel a negative economic and social impact, in fact, for some time now.

Jesus did do a good deed. It showed some personal sacrifice. Maybe alot more than most were willing to show. But what would people have thought of Jesus, had he not chanced upon the wreck? He would be another factor in our economic decline. Please consider, He might be taking a job from someone who grew up here, payed taxes here, spoke english, and had legal citizenship...but because of that, that someone's employer thinks that he can dramatically cut labor costs' by using an illegal immigrant like Jesus, whom he can pay under the table, not worry about taxes or healthcare, and he can pay less than minimum wage(Because on the books, Jesus, and millions of other illegal aliens' do not exist, anyway.)

     A line has to be drawn, cold and cruel, I know, but we've reached the point in our country's history where a factor like Illegal immigration can undue everything we've striven to achieve. We must end it soon, or our end will be on the horizon.

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2007, 08:30:48 PM »
Thank you, Frode, for that calm, reasoned response that refrained from joining the "Flame the Idealist" circle jerk.

I would like to add that I'm sure the Founding Fathers also didn't anticipate a future where the nation's borders would be regulated in the way they are now. Franklin's statement: "Those who willingly give up liberty for security deserve neither" can ALSO be applied to this entire argument. That's one the key difficulties in this debate is that letter of the law TODAY is clashing with the Founding Fathers' original spirit of intent. So many UNIQUE liberties were written into the US Constitution at the time, PRECISELY in response to the legal excesses of governments, and the religious and ethnic intolerance of Europe (and that's not to say that the latter two did NOT exist here, but the United States is largely unique in that people of so many diverse religions and cultures learned to co-exist in relative peace).

Had US borders been regulated throughout the 19th century to the same (comparable) degree they are now, individuals who were then welcomed (let's steer clear of the then-existing racist complications for the time being, shall we?) would TODAY be turned away or forcibly removed. It would have COMPLETELY changed the character of the nation in the period between the end of the Civil war and beginning of the 19th century if we had the same immigration system in place then as we have today. This may be one of the key eras that DEFINED us as a nation. It's a continuous process of the demand for greater security challenging the liberty of one of the most open borders in the world.

And I find it disturbing because one of the things that MADE America so special is that we didn't CARE who you were, or who your father was, or how much money you had. All that mattered was that you wanted to make a better life for yourself and for your families and to have the power to chose your OWN destiny. It's only been this MODERN culture of Political Correctness that the meaning of "Land of Opportunity" has changed from an opportunity to BUILD a better life, to expecting it handed to you. This is the failing of ALL people in America. Native citizens expect it because they were born here. Immigrants expect it because they're willing to fight to COME here.

I will not deny that yes, there ARE some who come here thinking they can get a free ride (the government ITSELF is partially responsible for that). I will not deny that yes, there ARE some people who would take advantage of any relaxation in border security to do us harm. But why is this the only side people are willing to see? At what point do we reach that moment where we've given TOO MUCH up for security? There's a difference between surrendering sovereignty, to stepping back and seeing that the knee-jerk reaction has only been exacerbating the issue.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Donzo

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2007, 08:46:03 PM »
Saxman,

Does building your own destiny include doing it at the expense of others?


It's only been this MODERN culture of Political Correctness that the meaning of "Land of Opportunity" has changed from an opportunity to BUILD a better life, to expecting it handed to you. This is the failing of ALL people in America. Native citizens expect it because they were born here. Immigrants expect it because they're willing to fight to COME here.


What?  Lazy Americans expect it because they were born here so it's acceptable that immigrants (illegal) expect it too?  Illegal immigrants expect it because they're willing to BREAK THE LAW to come here.  What fight?  Walking across the border in secret?

How exactly did the immigrants come to our country throughout the 19th century, Saxman?  Did they just walk in?  Did a majority of them jump off the boat and swim to Brooklyn or Staten Island, bypassing Ellis Island?

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2007, 08:54:04 PM »
they are on our roads killing our handicaps .

:furious
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Offline SteveBailey

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2007, 09:00:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Incidentally, recent studies have found that the cost of supporting illegals have actually been greatly OVER-estimated.




link?

Offline john9001

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2007, 09:13:24 PM »
a country without secure borders is not a country, it is open territory.

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2007, 09:18:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
link?
Heres a link for Senor Saxman

not work ethic or legal status but education
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2007, 09:23:13 PM »
"How exactly did the immigrants come to our country throughout the 19th century, Saxman? Did they just walk in? Did a majority of them jump off the boat and swim to Brooklyn or Staten Island, bypassing Ellis Island?"

I think that was the point I was trying to make. Immigration laws have changed SIGNIFICANTLY. By today's standards, in the 19th century people were essentially being let in right off the boat. Extensive background checks weren't practical, if even possible, and there was no prearranged application process. Only about 2% of the 12-20 million immigrants who passed through were denied entry via Ellis Island, and were either allowed into the country proper or sent back to the boats within about 6hrs of arrival. If today's immigration laws had been in effect at that time, that number denied entry would likely have been SIGNIFICANTLY higher.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Donzo

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2007, 09:29:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
"How exactly did the immigrants come to our country throughout the 19th century, Saxman? Did they just walk in? Did a majority of them jump off the boat and swim to Brooklyn or Staten Island, bypassing Ellis Island?"

I think that was the point I was trying to make. Immigration laws have changed SIGNIFICANTLY. By today's standards, in the 19th century people were essentially being let in right off the boat. Extensive background checks weren't practical, if even possible, and there was no prearranged application process. Only about 2% of the 12-20 million immigrants who passed through were denied entry via Ellis Island, and were either allowed into the country proper or sent back to the boats within about 6hrs of arrival. If today's immigration laws had been in effect at that time, that number denied entry would likely have been SIGNIFICANTLY higher.


Ok, how would one know if they would be granted admittance to this country if they do not go through the proper channels?

Offline Neubob

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For those who think Illegals have made no beneficial contribution to America
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2007, 09:54:53 PM »
by the way, I think you need to get your Caps Lock button fixed.