Author Topic: 190 Series Vs. P38 Series  (Read 7990 times)

Offline hubsonfire

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2007, 09:41:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Hrm... Stephen doesn't even play ANY flight sim game, Hubs.

Even the greenest of newbies isn't that bad. I wonder if he's a shades troll?


http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191696

Give his posts a quick read.
;)
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Offline hubsonfire

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2007, 09:43:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280
What can I say, I love the mud flaps.




Suicide Dweeb. :aok


Those are called elevators, goofball. If you cleaned the mud off, you might not auger all the time. :)
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Offline E25280

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2007, 09:59:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Those are called elevators, goofball. If you cleaned the mud off, you might not auger all the time. :)
:o

It's all so clear now . . . :cry
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Offline CAP1

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2007, 11:51:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stephen

Oh yeh, the 190's game is not in the turn, and it never has been, simply put a 38 rolls slow, and the 190 rolls fast, in fact the 38 is the easiest A/C to scissor in a 190 as the roll rate is so cruddy.

 [/B]


i'm by no means a good p38 driver.....but..........you'd be VERY surprised at just how well she DOES roll, with proper rudder application.......


<>
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Offline CAP1

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2007, 11:54:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stephen
so theres basicly a gun to the 190's head, and he must fight, ok.....

so what are the rules co alt and co E? head on pass? 38 is being chased, or 190?

ok let me make it even more simple.

I will kill 72% of the pilots in this game 2 out of three times in a co alt merge in my 190d9 vs a 38L at medium alt "below 15k".
Theres no convincing you obviously, and ill accept that, but you know when your in that 38 and a decent 190 stick is coming head on that one of two things are gonna happen, hes gonna run away from you or your gonna die, last post on the subject :aok


hhmmmm....this almost sounds like you wanna go to the DA with ack ack, murdr, or widewing to prove your point....and i think that if you don't go there, then they've proven their point......and again, i am no good 38 driver.......yet....hellll... ..i have trouble in spits and hurris....and in zekes.....sheesh.....can't catch a cold in those buckets:rofl

<>:rofl
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Offline CAP1

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2007, 11:58:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Again, the offer still stands.  If you want to know what a P-38 can do versus a FW190, look me up.  I'll be more than happy to show you but I doubt you will take me up on my offer since from your own admission you'll just run away.

ack-ack


i bet ya a six pack he doesn't take the offer....salthough i wish he would.......and that both of you would film it.......there are a lot of us that could learn a lot from seeing two decent sticks in this fight.

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Offline CAP1

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2007, 11:59:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
My response to this is summed up here.

My regards,

Widewing


:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline CAP1

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2007, 12:00:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
And why is that??

Because it is flown by wuss pickers.


and hotards, and bnz'rs.........although there are a few good ones......:noid
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Offline Anaxogoras

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2007, 02:05:46 AM »
Something was never specified in the original question.  Is this a 1vs1 duel, 2vs2, or a multiple aircraft engagement?
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Offline Ack-Ack

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2007, 04:42:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Something was never specified in the original question.  Is this a 1vs1 duel, 2vs2, or a multiple aircraft engagement?


It seems to change whenever it suits stephan.  I think now it's gone from superior to the P-38 to the best damn runner in the game.


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Offline Widewing

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 38 lovers, sorry
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2007, 10:46:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TUXC
wwiiaircraftperformance.com has 3 tests of the A-5 with 407-408mph at 20669ft.

440 for the 190D is definitely high (though much more representative than the 408 which was posted above), but I can find anywhere from 691-702km/h for max speed of the D-9 (429-236mph) with MW-50, so for the purposes of this discussion 430mph is probably a reasonable value without the rack. Of course, the 190D reaches this speed well below 20000ft whereas the P38's max speed is reached above 20k, so the Dora only has a speed advantage at low and medium altitude. This margin is diminished somewhat if the 38L's engines are rigged for more than 60" MP. In real life it would probably be a good fight, but in the game the Dora has to stay fast in a 1v1 to live. 2v2 or 4v4 is a different story, however.


I had to pull out my notebook and check actual in-game speeds at various altitudes.

At 21.7k the Dora can reach 428 mph.
At 18k, the Dora can reach 431 mph.
At 16k the Dora can reach 425 mph.
At 16k in MIL power, the Dora can manage only 402 mph.

One very underrated fighter is the P-51B, which is damned fast at middle altitudes.

At 18k the P-51B does 422 mph.
At 16k the P-51B does 427 mph, faster than the Dora.
At 16k in MIL power, the P-51B does 419 mph, 17 mph faster than the Dora does at MIL power. Keep in mind that the P-51B was in combat a year before the Dora.

In short, without WEP, the Dora is a bit of a dog.

At 20k, the P-38L can reach 405 mph, 406 mph at 20.7k.

At the Dora's best altitude of 18k and above, The P-38L accelerates faster and climbs significantly faster. Its turn radius at all altitudes is much smaller.

Stephen has commented that the roll rate of the Dora is a big advantage. He's wrong. Above 300 mph, the P-38L rolls just as fast, and faster with a bit of rudder added (constant rate). The Dora is faster over the first 20 to 30 degrees as it has less mass outboard of the roll axis. You see, roll rate by itself is not much help if the aircraft can't pitch into the lift vector well, which is a major problem for the Dora. Urchin and I dueled his Dora against my P-47D-25. In a relatively slow flat scissors, the Jug simply ate up the Dora. Why? Because the Dora can't pitch into the lift vector well enough. Plus, the Jug just dumps flaps and slides around for a shot every time the Dora tries to turn off the roll. The P-38 is even better than the Jug at this.

Now, on to the Antons...

At 20.7k, the 190A-5 can reach 407 mph, but accelerates and climbs notably slower than the P-38J/L. The 190A-8 can manage 403 mph, but climb and acceleration are rather poor.

Naturally, the higher you go, the more the 190s suffer.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline mg1942

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2007, 02:37:01 PM »
This IS the WORST fighter comparison i've ever seen.

190A/D/F series vs P-47D series would be better (N excluded because it did not participate in Euro theater)

It would be more appropriate if Bf 109 series was compared against P-38.

early war
P-38G vs Bf 109F

mid war
P-38J vs Bf 109G-2/G-6

late war
P-38L vs Bf 109G-14

* 109K here is excluded because it would be too much against the P-38s.  109Ks would be better match against the Spitfire XIV

Offline BaldEagl

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2007, 03:10:19 PM »
I fly 190's all the time (about 1/3 of my fighter flight time), particularily the A8.  In a co-e one on one fight the 38 will win hands down every time given equal pilot skill unless the 190 HO's on the merge or simply keeps going (running).

There are, however, many unskilled pilots in the arenas (me among them but I digress) and I have been able to beat Spits, F4U's F6F's and others in one on one turn/knife fights, although for the most part I wouldn't recommend it.  Having an alt/E advantage to start is helpful particularily against "better" pilots.

The 190's do make fun turn fighters in multi-con/multi-friendly engagements though, where attention has to be continually diverted (small furballs).  In such engagements, they can be both elusive and deadly.

The key to the 190 in my opinion is speed, therefor, flap usage should normally be avoided (although I have used them successfully in the past when the situation warrented it).

As B'n'Zer's and buff hunters they excel.

So there you go, everything you already knew about 190's so you never bothered to ask.
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Offline Kweassa

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2007, 03:33:55 PM »
To be fair, being able to disengage at will does account for a significant tactical advantage in a more "realistic" perspective where survival does count higher in importance, than whether a fighter plane can gratify the game pilot's ego in the need to knife-fight everything, and then thump their chests about it.

 Having a generally higher K/D, does account for something, since whether or not the pilot chooses to "cherry pick" something is generally of no importance to the opponent when it comes to combat, since the only thing important in aerial combat is the results. Whether the other guy picks or not is just no excuse.

 ...

 There are always pickers in every planes, and to be honest and frank, I've never really seen the "duelist" type of guys ever fight in their "disadvantaged" corners of the map. You see those guys usually flying in either a generally evenly matched, or an advantageous part of the map, where their own side has got the initiative and local air superiority for the moment. Or, you may see them in an "easy defensive" situation where the enemy attackers are limited and generally lacking in both skill and numbers. In other words, people usually choose to fly where they can survive more easily - which accounts for a lot of why they seem to do well in a generally "inferior" plane in many cases... not to mention those people also flock with each other, usually resulting in a "spike" of pilot skill level for their own side in that area, which also adds to the favorable environment they'd fly in.

 If they go so far as to claim they maintain a superior K/D in their plane of choice, all the while knife-fighting against everyplane, truly without concern of where they fight, then simply put, they're lying.  If wanting to prove otherwise, come to the Rooks and look up my position, take off from the fields where I choose to fly, and come fly with me for a while against odds and situations which I can really say would be pretty much "unfriendly" in many aspects. For years, I've been observing the "vets" and their tendencies in where they fly, and truthfully saying, it's not very impressive if you really try keep track of just where those "super-ace" type of pilots show up in the MA. Like so many others, the "vets" aren't so different in that they also flock to the path of least resistance and easy kills. They just tend to more fiercely deny it than the average guy.

 ...

 But that being said, choosing where to fly is an active part of SA, since taking off from airfields in situations where doing so is more or less foolhardy, isn't exactly something to brag about either. Therefore, where or how the pilots chooses to fight is a free choice for everyone, and thus, it becomes no excuse in determining how really well a plane fares in the MA.

 And if the Dora is powerful enough to grant a much higher survivability in accordance to the "cherry picking" style of the pilot, then that's by itself a trait worth praising of - it does exactly what the pilot needs, namely, keeping them alive, and with very admirable results. Unlike the P-38, only one or two planes can run it down when things go hairy and the pilots decides to run. It disengages at will, and allows the pilot to survive. If that's not "superiority", then what is?

 I'm a meager pilot, and the chances are, I'm gonna meet a superior pilot whom I'd probably lose to whether I fly a 190 or a P-38 - that is, if I choose to stick to the fight the way they like. However, when things get hairy, the 190 can save my bacon. The P-38 cannot. How's this not "superiority"?
 

 I've seen most of the faces showed up in this thread, usually praising the P-51, for example, when some other, similar type of comparison/discussion forms around an inexperienced pilot who questions if the P-51 is undermodelled, because he can't seem to outfly it against much more nimbler, yet slower fighter planes. Most of these people have answered that the P-51's strength lies in its ability engage or disengage at will, and how that is a superior trait among others. Strangely, for some reason, the same analogy doesn't seem to apply in this thread.

 Coincidence? I call it "double standard".

 ...
 
 However, the K/D stats should be taken into more careful consideration in the fact that the differing roles between the Fw190D-9 and the P-38J/L in the MA accounts for a lot. Like all planes, only a handful of people have really "mastered" them, and the rest use the P-38 as more or less of a jabo plane, generally a one-way ride to the enemy base. The lack of ordnance limits the Dora to mostly a pure A2A role, and if we discount the deaths in P-38 caused from a non-A2A duty, then the K/D gap between the P-38 and the Dora would probably be closed in a lot more.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 03:50:42 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Guppy35

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190 Series Vs. P38 Series
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2007, 03:45:35 PM »
Probably best to use the 38J for the comparison as the 38G drivers like myself tend to be down low and slow and a tad suicidal in our flying and the 38L drivers outside of a few use it as the ground pounder.

The best 38 drivers bar a couple of the L guys are in the 38J for the most part.
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