CIA jet crashes with 4 tons coke onboard

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lazs2
arlo and crock-it. if you are surprised by my stance on torture and governments power in general then it simply means that you have not been paying attention.

You're so misunderstood. But you understand everyone else in an almost supernatural way. Sympathies on the first and the second greatly impresses me.

But .... glad you don't see torture as acceptable through rationalization.

[john9001]

US troops just found a torture house in Iraq, it had a steel bed frame wired to a electrical outlet, rubber hoses, bloody knives, chains on the wall, and a mass grave out back with bodies in it, but i doubt it was a real torture house like gitmo because they did not find any water boards or even snow boards.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by john9001
US troops just found a torture house in Iraq, it had a steel bed frame wired to a electrical outlet, rubber hoses, bloody knives, chains on the wall, and a mass grave out back with bodies in it, but i doubt it was a real torture house like gitmo because they did not find any water boards or even snow boards.

Because standards are allowed to drop when theirs drop lower. That's how it's always been. Ahem. Brilliance in action. john tried to make a funnay and win the thread in a last ditch effort. I say this requires an instant replay judgement by the refs.

[john9001]

arlo, it was in the news.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by john9001
arlo, it was in the news.

Holy crap! That makes your post sensible and teh funnay now! I'm hoping the refs call it a win for ya.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Arlo
Cause having standards doesn't require exemplifying them anymore. Thank you W.

'

If was a choice between using waterboarding on a known terrorist and the life your loved on (wife? children?) would you still take the moral high ground.

IE, say your family was trapped in a house, with a bomb ticking away, they couldn't be evacuated without first disarmed the bomb. And the only way to disarm it was with a 6 digit code (and if you brute forced the code the bomb would detonate). But the bomber had been captured, but was refusing to disclose the code, would you then condone water boarding if it guaranteed the result desired?

[sgt203]

Originally posted by Vulcan
'

If was a choice between using waterboarding on a known terrorist and the life your loved on (wife? children?) would you still take the moral high ground.

IE, say your family was trapped in a house, with a bomb ticking away, they couldn't be evacuated without first disarmed the bomb. And the only way to disarm it was with a 6 digit code (and if you brute forced the code the bomb would detonate). But the bomber had been captured, but was refusing to disclose the code, would you then condone water boarding if it guaranteed the result desired?

He probably would but he would be too late to help.

The great white horse he is riding upon would never make it there in time from the moral high ground:D

[lazs2]

arlo.. was not claiming to be missunderstood in any supernatural or touchy feely way..  I was just pointing out that you are not paying attention to simple words.    I have explained my thoughts on torture many times in the past.   if you felt you had to use your intuition... it just means that you are unable to process simple information.

Most people have no problem at all understanding me.   I am pretty clear most all of the time.

The same goes for you.. you are not near as complex as you would like us to think..  at least not on the simple things like your political leanings.   You have not surprised me lately and I doubt that you surprise anyone else who simply reads what you write.

course..   you could be fibbin'.

lazs

[Viking]

Originally posted by Vulcan
'

If was a choice between using waterboarding on a known terrorist and the life your loved on (wife? children?) would you still take the moral high ground.

IE, say your family was trapped in a house, with a bomb ticking away, they couldn't be evacuated without first disarmed the bomb. And the only way to disarm it was with a 6 digit code (and if you brute forced the code the bomb would detonate). But the bomber had been captured, but was refusing to disclose the code, would you then condone water boarding if it guaranteed the result desired?

That's why police officers, judges and other officers of government are not allowed to be involved in cases that are personal to them. You and others here are constantly trying to make this a personal matter; "what if your wife...", "what if your family..." - I would do anything to save my family, but that's beside the point because we're NOT talking about my family and me, we're talking about government agents legally using torture to obtain information.

If you had just admitted to my face that you had raped and killed my daughter, I would kill you where you stand. It is a natural response ... but should we therefore allow our agents of government to arbitrarily murder people?

I don't think so.

[MadMan]

Guess the CIA will be drinking Pepsi at their Christmas party

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Vulcan
'

If was a choice between using waterboarding on a known terrorist and the life your loved on (wife? children?) would you still take the moral high ground.

IE, say your family was trapped in a house, with a bomb ticking away, they couldn't be evacuated without first disarmed the bomb. And the only way to disarm it was with a 6 digit code (and if you brute forced the code the bomb would detonate). But the bomber had been captured, but was refusing to disclose the code, would you then condone water boarding if it guaranteed the result desired?

Sorry. Not one example of waterboarding being required to avoid a situation like on the T.V. show "24" has ever been offered up by the administration to justify exceptions to the standards against torture the U.S. has supported since ... well ... pretty much the formation of the nation.

But if the rationalization makes you feel better, keep watching the show and using it to form your political opinions.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lazs2
arlo.. was not claiming to be missunderstood in any supernatural or touchy feely way..  I was just pointing out that you are not paying attention to simple words.  

Or simple minds? Ok. You're in the running for winning the entire forum, dude.

[john9001]

rip an paste time.

<
All that changed -- and Zubayda reportedly had a divine revelation -- after 30 to 35 seconds of waterboarding, Kiriakou said he learned from the CIA agents who performed the technique.

The terror suspect, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, reportedly gave up information that indirectly led to the the 2003 raid in Pakistan yielding the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, an alleged planner of the September 11, 2001, attacks, Kiriakou said.

The CIA was unaware of Mohammed's stature before the Abu Zubayda interrogation, the former agent said.

"Abu Zubayda's the one who told us that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was so important in the al Qaeda structure, and we didn't realize at the time how important he was," Kiriakou said.

Abu Zubayda also divulged information on "al Qaeda's leadership structure and mentioned people who we really didn't have any familiarization with [and] told us who we should be thinking about, who we should be looking at, and who was important in the organization so we were able to focus our investigation this way," Kiriakou said.

Abu Zubayda reportedly told the agent who waterboarded him that "Allah had visited him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate because it would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured," Kiriakou said.

Though the information wrenched from Abu Zubayda "stopped terrorist attacks and saved lives," Kiriakou said he opposes waterboarding.
>>


"stopped terrorist attacks and saved lives,"

[sgt203]

Originally posted by Viking
That's why police officers, judges and other officers of government are not allowed to be involved in cases that are personal to them. You and others here are constantly trying to make this a personal matter; "what if your wife...", "what if your family..." - I would do anything to save my family, but that's beside the point because we're NOT talking about my family and me, we're talking about government agents legally using torture to obtain information.

If you had just admitted to my face that you had raped and killed my daughter, I would kill you where you stand. It is a natural response ... but should we therefore allow our agents of government to arbitrarily murder people?

I don't think so.

I dont think we should allow our government agents to ARBITRARILY MURDER people either. That is a far stretch from waterboarding.

However you have to understand that most of these terrorists are religious zealots who are not going to voluntarily give you information out of  the goodness of their hearts. They are going to have to be persuaded to give the information you seek.  

It is a personal matter to some mother, father, brother or sister out there who may be the next target.To say that is beside the point because it does not personally involve you, but then to say should it you would do whatever it takes to protect your family is slightly hypocritical. That is exactly what is being done here. They do not have to specifically protect your family but every family all over the world.

There needs to be some control over what can and cannot be used to obtain information and it needs to be kept secret ( not that that is ever possible these days).

Bin Laden knows what terrorist plans, hiding places, training spots are and should we ever catch him should we not get that information, even if it involves having to use some sort of force to get it.

His last big attack caused the deaths of over 3000 American Civilians, men, women and children. His networks world wide body count is much much higher than that. He and his followers have long ago removed themselves from the laws and acceptance of the civilized world. Yet we should provide them the protections of the civilized world once they are drawn back into it against their will???

Do we strap electrodes to their testicles, cut and mutlilate them with knives, break bones etc etc etc... NO even in my opinion that goes far beyond the realm of acceptable.

However Sleep deprivation, waterboarding,and the use of complete isolation are not in my opinion Torture.

These government agents job is to protect you, your family, our soldiers home and abroad, and every civilian of every country all over the world who may for whatever reason may be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  

To allow a person who has, in my opinion, removed themselves from the laws of civilized mankind to withhold information that may save the life of someones Mother , father or brother or sister out of political correctness is absurd.

That is why I dont mind and why they dont matter.

[sgt203]

Originally posted by Arlo
Sorry. Not one example of waterboarding being required to avoid a situation like on the T.V. show "24" has ever been offered up by the administration to justify exceptions to the standards against torture the U.S. has supported since ... well ... pretty much the formation of the nation.

But if the rationalization makes you feel better, keep watching the show and using it to form your political opinions.

OK he used a bomb for an example... So  you focus on that but refuse to see where it has worked and has saved lives. Are these lives less important because they were not your family.

How about this stick your head in the sand, play ostrich and use that to support your political opinions and views.

There is no need to rationalize anything here. It has provided information, it has saved lives.