something from Dogfights

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by toonces3
I understood Krusty as addressing the person that said they would always believe the actual pilot rather than the armchair quarterback, or something to that extent.  Krusty said that one shouldn't blindly assume the actual pilot is correct- memories deteriorate, get embellished with time (or diminished), memories may be fuzzy from the heat of battle, etc.  Other times, the pilot might alter their memory of the engagement to sensationalize.  

These things happen.

There's no reason one can't question the validity of a memory of someone that flew a mission 50+ years ago.  

I thought that move on that dogfights episode was pretty...unbelievable...in the way it was portrayed, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen that way.  It does mean that I didn't necessarily buy it just because the pilot and the History channel 'said so'.

I don't think Krusty has said anything disparaging (sp) here.  Just my opinion- I've enjoyed the discussion nevertheless.

Krusty was challenging my comment regarding Don Bryan of the 352nd, and basically got preachy about 'blind devotion'.  I didn't care much for the tone and frankly considering the amount of my life I've spent researching WW2 aviation and dealing with the vets of the conflict, I was hard pressed not telling him to stuff it.  

One of the hardest parts of these boards at times is you get folks who get a little knowledge and it becomes the gospel.  They find a single source and it's the absolute truth.  They hear one theory and it becomes the absolute truth.

My point was originally and still is, I'll take the word and the memory of a guy who was facing the potential of his own death in recalling that event over some guy who sits in front of a computer flying a flight sim claiming he knows better.

[Citabria]

heres the bottom line many people like to overlook.

AH flight model keeps getting better and better. they research the hell out of the FM's. they labor over the intricacies of the performance of each plane in minute detail so that its perfromance will realistically compare to its real world counterpart.

its to the point now where its a real joy to fly thse planes in low speed stall maneuvers. an area of flight modelling which is hardest to get right.

how many other flight sim developers modelled their rv8 into their sim so they could compare their flight model performance to their real airplane throughout its flight envelope?

name one other than HT.

we get to reap the rewards of this in having a flight model system that can make warbirds fly like realistic airplanes.

and like it or not no matter what you fly all the real world tricks work.

the climbing spirals of the 109s. the diving attacks of p47s. the circle jerk spitfires. and yes everybody in the luftwaffe was in disbelief of the la7's performance just like they are in AH.

its all here and no plane flies the same. they don't "feel" the same when you fly them either unlike other games like IL2 which every plane is the same with different top speed and climb rates.

some are very stable and some are very unstable. some fantastic gun platforms others are not. etc etc.

the thing to remember is that all the data from ww2 aircraft tens to conflict and pilot accounts are not quantifyable into "coad".

HTC arrives at the end result flight models through very dilligent research and number crunching to result in planes that overall "feel" correct and are enjoyable to fly.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by splitatom
i have done the 180 in one of the p i forget which one just for fun at like 7k very quick poped nose up ruder hard right and use alerons to stableise the plane

really? film it and show us.....we'd all like to see it

Originally posted by Yeager
(2) The average 2 month AH vet has equal or better ACM skills then the average RL WW2 pilot did and more actual "combats".
====
Can I quote you on this?

Actual "combats" in AcesHigh? are you serious?

Guys, this is the kind of mentality Im talking about. We are gamers fellas, plain and simple. We "play" make believe world war 2 fighter aces on desktop computers. It is a FANTASY!

This thread is starting to resemble those Iron Eagle movies where some 16 year old punk kid saves the world in his F16......

well, with what Fester just posted about Aces High / HTC's coading/modeling.......
I would certianly pick widewing, Fester, kappa, Balsy and other long time flyers over your fresh from the states combat flight jock who has less than a year in flying a fighter plane in WWII......any day of the week.......

yes it is a game...no doubt
but it also is a combat flight simulation.......and just trying to think how many hours I have in these flight simulations , most of them full realism like.......I would not hesitate to think I could know my plane better than the other guy knows his.....

you're talking comparisions like :
WWII Combat Fighter Pilot = 100 hrs or so   verses  (just aces High alone) longtime Aces High Player = 5,000 hours+  flying in combat/dogfights.......

who would you put your money on?


edit: small little note here, Yeager, I just noticed you called yourself a gamer, fair enough.....if people want to be gamers, or people want to play make believe..is all good.......
I want to learn BFM, ACM, E Management, SA, and all the ins and outs of the individual plane types.......There is a BIG Difference.......

[humble]

Originally posted by Yeager
2) The average 2 month AH vet has equal or better ACM skills then the average RL WW2 pilot did and more actual "combats".
====
Can I quote you on this?

Actual "combats" in AcesHigh?  are you serious?  

Guys, this is the kind of mentality Im talking about.  We are gamers fellas, plain and simple.  We "play" make believe world war 2 fighter aces on desktop computers.   It is a FANTASY!

This thread is starting to resemble those Iron Eagle movies where some 16 year old punk kid saves the world in his F16......

Voss?  Voss...where are you

Hmmm

Just for your 411 that is almost a verbatim quote from a former USAF fighter pilot who's flown both AH & warbirds and is an expert in combat training.

Lets cover a few points...

The average WW2 pilot had alot of BFM but very little true advanced ACM of any kind. Further he had little autonomy initially and was a often flying #4 slot.

Well over 80% of all casualties in fighter on fighter combat were scored on non manuevering targets. Eyesight and gunnery were the two single most important factors seperating great pilots from good ones and live ones from dead ones.

Less then 5% of all WW2 combat pilots on any side ever recorded a kill. The average life expectency and mortality rate for new pilots on all sides was comparatively very high. Often these pilots never saw the plane that killed them, when they did they froze or made a basic mistake. A single lapse in judgement or mistake ended many pilots lives before they had a chance to learn...

Even after a pilot learned alot combats often consisted of a single or "double" move and a single firing solution. Accounts often tell of an experienced pilot racking up multiple kills in short order vs obviously overmatched opponents.

If we move forward to modern aviation simulator check rides and trainers are highly regarded and utilized by NASA, all major military units (land and air) all airlines and the FAA and widely recognized for saving thousands of lives. AH is just that, a combat simulator. The average 60 day player has significantly more actual combat experience (simulated) then an actual WW2 pilot. He also has a better grasp of the two critical aspects of ACM...angles and E fighting as well as at least some minimum exposure to very advanced ACM.

The simulated combat in AH is every bit as real from a tactical perspective as the real thing.

[Guppy35]

None of us doing it where the stakes are real though snaphook.  Gotta believe that would make a huge difference too.

The reason so many of us have so many hours in 'combat' is because we aren't really dying.

Most of us would have been dead in our first day if not first hour

[Imoutfishing]

True but we all would have had some degree of training  

DF's is a great bit of TV but you can't translate everything you see in that show to any given fight you find yourself in in AH.  

The key is to play your selected aircraft into a position reap from it's strength's.  AH has made massive efforts to model that.  

I haven't been able to do it as of yet but I can name dozens of pilot's that have

MGD

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by humble
The simulated combat in AH is every bit as real from a tactical perspective as the real thing.

While there's no doubt that simulators teach valuable lessons that can be applied in the real world, computer technology is not (yet?) to the point where it can duplicate the effects of G forces on our bodies.  In my limited experience, that makes a very big difference.  I recall one account by an American P-51 pilot who was in an extended turning fight with a German plane.  His oxygen mask was slipping down his face, he was getting nauseous, his arm was hurting, and those things nearly forced him to change the tactics he was using (if I remember correctly, the German changed first).  It's all well and good for us to repeatedly dive and loop and ride the edge of blackout in our mock combats, but we really shouldn't kid ourselves that we would be able to sustain that for long in a real airplane.  

- oldman

[RumbleB]

Oldman. Was reading and hoping someone would point that out. I wouldn't want to pick a random AH player as a wingman as his fitness levels might be terrible lol, did they have McDonalds and donuts back then?
I'd love to see the effects on someone jerking their stick while maneuvering a couple of feet off the ground. Actually I bet half of the stuff I do ingame would black me out in a real situation (either by passing out or covering my canopy in vomit)

[Yeager]

comparing skills of people who sit at computer chairs drinking beer, farting, and bull*****ting their way across the internet to people who actually enlist train and perform their duties as pilots in armed forces is teh ludicris.  get real

1G pilots....its laughable

Or perhaps what Napoleon said really does matter: Chicks like dudes with computer fighter pilot skillz.....



somebody post the pic of that grotesquely fat kid all decked out in combat gear telling some army officer "Dont worry Sir, Im from the internet

And Yes, HTCs flight models are probably the best in the gaming industry.

[humble]

Originally posted by Guppy35
None of us doing it where the stakes are real though snaphook.  Gotta believe that would make a huge difference too.

The reason so many of us have so many hours in 'combat' is because we aren't really dying.

Most of us would have been dead in our first day if not first hour

NO question about it Guppy, and that is why the old truism about the guys replaying the days fights in the bar and the whole "flying elbow" thingie rings so true. you can find literally hundreds of combat accounts where the guy says "I thought I was dead but then remembered old jonesie said if you get pickled like this then your only hope is a hard climbing right hander against his torque"...

This was as close to a "simulator" as these guys could ever get. 1st you need to aquire the knowledge and then apply it, often thru trial and error. If we look at some of the great german aces many were shot down multiple times along the way. Alot of knowlege is paid for with blood, hopefully just not all of it...(blood that is).

Combat of any kind is a crucible but we experience similiar things IRL as well aside from combat. Many accidents occur from highspeed tire blowouts...often with fatal results...yet others have survived multiple such incidents without denting a fender. Beyond that speaking personally there is no simulator for being on a runaway horse, you either can or cant deal with it once it happens and sadly the fatality rate for this type of equestrian accident is suprisingly high, seperate from the Christopher Reeves of the world and other level one trauma's.

As oldman posted below not everyone can withstand the physical stress of aircombat. Actually however that is a relatively trivial issue compared to eye sight. Far beyond any single other issue eyesight played a critical role in combat. Often times the bogies never knew they were under attack till the 1st bullet hit....seeing your enemy first was the biggest hurdle in real combat. Gunnery was second, while not all aces were great shots, most were. The vast majority of guys with great eyesight also had tremendous natural "spatial awareness" or whatever you call that ability to gauge where the bullets are going...

[humble]

Originally posted by Yeager
comparing skills of people who sit at computer chairs drinking beer, farting, and bull*****ting their way across the internet to people who actually enlist train and perform their duties as pilots in armed forces is teh ludicris.  get real

1G pilots....its laughable

Or perhaps what Napoleon said really does matter: Chicks like dudes with computer fighter pilot skillz.....



somebody post the pic of that grotesquely fat kid all decked out in combat gear telling some army officer "Dont worry Sir, Im from the internet

And Yes, HTCs flight models are probably the best in the gaming industry.

Sadly your a bit clueless...

So lets deal with some reality.

1) a large subsection of people who tried washed out from pilot training...accordingly so would a cross section of those from AH. However not only does AH have a % that could handle it, we actually have more then a few who actually did or are pursuing it.

2) alot of people who fly AH for fun actually either work in a capacity, have worked in a capacity or pursue other interests that put them "in harms way". A fireman, paramedic, sheriffs deputy, air traffic controller and hosts of others are often in RL situations that require quick clear decision making very applicable to air combat.

The pyhsical requirements of flying a fighter are the smallest aspect of success, they are simply a binary part of the equation. Douglas Bader flew without legs and others flew with damaged arms (one german ace couldnt even fully extend his right hand and had to use both arms on the stick much of the time). Spatial awareness is a much bigger aspect of unusual attitude flying then the G forces except under the very extremes. Yes high G dogfighting occured, but not really that often. Much of successful combat was vision, positioning and gunnery...very little in the weeds 6G turning occured IRL. By and large thats a AH reality...

As a side note more and more combat functionality is being taken over by UAB's and your "fat kid on the internet" is getting closer and closer to being the next real life ACE btw...

[Yeager]

Good God Humble man, not that I disagree with you but.........get a LIFE!
 

This thread is like a washed out corpse...stinks, but its neat to look at  

[Bucky73]

I just ask that these AH "pilots" go and do some ACTUAL dogfighting. I went to California about 5 years back and did this in a Italian Marchetti and while I will agree that games and sims will teach you some stuff. It's NOT EVEN close to the real thing.

Btw....I had been flying in RL for a few years when I went out to fly in California and when I left  from that experience I was very humble.

[RumbleB]

Originally posted by humble

2) alot of people who fly AH for fun actually either work in a capacity, have worked in a capacity or pursue other interests that put them "in harms way". A fireman, paramedic, sheriffs deputy, air traffic controller and hosts of others are often in RL situations that require quick clear decision making very applicable to air combat.
 

Personally I'm a cagefighter but I just had a general feeling that a lot of people playing this game are unfit> Judging from 200 everyone is drunk and having their 10th beer

[Bucky73]

Originally posted by RumbleB
Personally I'm a cagefighter but I just had a general feeling that a lot of people playing this game are unfit> Judging from 200 everyone is drunk and having their 10th beer

But....they are ONLY drunk if you had just shot them down.