Author Topic: Guess we're gettin' a 39Q!  (Read 12313 times)

Offline Megalodon

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« Reply #195 on: January 28, 2008, 11:52:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
P400 was used a lot early in the Pacific Karnak.  They had em in the MTO as well.

Definately not 'rare' like a 4 20mm Spit V

A few shots of 80th FS P400s as well as the well known Air A Qutie


Norb Ruff's 80th FS bird




Might as well get the good side



From what I can gather Only 80  or so P-400 were delivered to the Brits.

"Of the 675 Model 14s ordered by the RAF, 212 were diverted to the Soviet Union (54 of that number being lost in transit).    

  Of the rest, 179 were taken over by the USAAF.  Retaining their RAF serial
numbers, over 100 Model 14s, designated P-400 in US service, and rearmed by replacing the .303 Brownings with two .50 Brownings in the cowling, and 2 .30 Brownings in each wing, the 20mm was left, as it would have been a major pain
in the rear to replace it with the 37mm cannon, were shipped to Australia in early 1942 to strengthen USAAF units there.  Along with P-39Ds the P-400 became one of the first USAAF aircraft to see action when the 8th Group took it into action over port Moresby, New Guinea, in April 1942."

The P-39 sent to Britain under Lend-Lease was factory Model 14A. 494 with USAAF designations of P-39D-1 and -2 were ordered.

    In July 1941 the RAF received three P-39Cs with an Allison delivering 1,150hp up to 12,000', after which power fell off sharply. Observed top speed in RAF tests was 359 mph, slower than they had been led to believe. Shortly after RAF received first Airacobra Is (which were later redesignated P-400 by USAAF) with self-sealing tanks, external drop tank, 20mm nose cannon, among other things. RAF flight tests demonstrated top speed of 355 mph, faster than Spitfire VB at 15,000', but with a slower rate of climb.

    RAF 601 Sqn was equipped with Airacobras in Sept 1941 and they were in service about three months in numerous cross-channel missions to strafe ground targets and river barges. They were removed from service at the end of the year with performance deemed unsatisfactory and range too short.

    RAF accepted only a total of 80 Airacobras, the rest of the order went to USSR, and to USAAF, who redesignated its 179 planes P-400 and assigned them along with P-39s to the 8th, 35th, and 67th Fighter Groups in the Southwest Pacific. By June 30, 20 P-400s had been destroyed in combat. In July, P-400s were only able to intercept four of nine Japanese bombing raids because they climbed too slowly above 12,000'. Thereafter they undertook strafing attacks on Japanese landing craft, where eight P-400s were lost in ten days, but invasion forces were severely damaged.

    The 67th's 14 P-400s went to Guadalcanal in late Aug 1942, where in combat four were destroyed and six damaged. They were then switched to ground attacks, where they performed admirably, and their tricycle gear enabled them to take off from fields so muddy that other types could not. P-400s played a key role in beating off the enemy attack on Bloody Ridge on Sep 2, 1941, where strafing attacks by three planes — the entire available force — decimated troop concentrations. They continued yeoman work during the rest of the Guadalcanal campaign, sometimes flying as many as 11 sorties per plane per day. P-39s did solid ground attack and anti-shipping work in Solomons, becoming expert boat-busters. The P-400s were gradually replaced by P-39s in the Pacific, but were still being sent from England to Africa in early 1943 (81st FG, 350th FG). 52 P-400s were in Africa at end of Jan 1943, carrying out low-level strafing attacks with considerable success and low losses.

In the Southwest Pacific at the end of July, the 5th AF still had 30 P-400s, averaging 300 combat flying hours each. P-39s and P-400s were considered useless above 17,000' by 5th AF brass and unequal to the heavy demands being made on fighter forces in the theater. They requested P-38s, but were offered P-63s, which they countered with a request for P-47s — they ended up with P-40s.
http://www.aerofiles.com/p400.html

Out of the 10000 or so p-39's made about 400 of the p-400<20mm version> made were flown and only about 250 were flown in combat including the USAAF. Others were sent to training roll.

How many spit5's with 4 20mm were there? VC =2,467

"Only 94 Mk.VA's were produced bfore the Mk. VB went into production early in 1941. The VB for the first time introduced "clipped" wing tips to increase the roll rate. It also featured an improved armament of 2-20mm cannon and 4-.303 machine guns. Some 3,911 Mk. Vb's were produced before the armament was again changed to 4-20mm cannon, thus creating the Mk. VC. A further 2,467 Mk. VC's were produced."

 Now I not going to argue with you about spits but what you saying about the spit 5, from what I can tell, dose not hold water. The p-400 was certinally more rare than a Spit Vc with 4 20mm.
 Don't you agree?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 12:20:21 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline TimRas

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« Reply #196 on: January 28, 2008, 12:15:35 PM »
"Nanette was an airplane. That should be made clear right at the start. She was not a very good plane; actually she stank. But she did a lot for me, I realize, as I look back on her. All the planes of that old war had distinguishing looks and personalities. The P-40, the Warhawk, was knobby and arrogant, a tomboy. The P-38, the Lightning, was lean and coltish, a rich debunte. The P-47, the Thunderbolt, was massive and dull, a peasant girl. The bombers had their distinctions, too, but I didn't know much about them. Of all the fighters, two could really excite a flyer. One was the P-51, Mustang, lovely to look at, honest, efficient, hardworking and dependable. In those days she was thought of as a wife, and I know men who married her, back then, and are still in love with her. The other was the P-39, the Airacobra. It was slim, with a gently curved tail section, a smoothly faired in air intake, and a perfectly rounded nose cone with its ugly, protruding cannon. But the Airacobra was lazy and slovenly and given to fits of vicious temper. It was a sexy machine, and rotten. Nanette was like that, and I was a little queer for her."

http://www.amazon.com/NANETTE-Her-Pilots-Love-Story/dp/0874747376/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201543462&sr=1-3

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #197 on: January 28, 2008, 12:39:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Megalodon


 Now I not going to argue with you about spits but what you saying about the spit 5, from what I can tell, dose not hold water. The p-400 was certinally more rare than a Spit Vc with 4 20mm.
 Don't you agree?


Actually it does and no I don't agree :)  

The Universal wing was capable of holding 4 cannons, but in service it rarely did.  The only operational 4 cannon Vcs that I've ever found were 2 Squadron SAAF that flew Vokes filtered, 4 cannon Vcs in a ground attack role.  The 4 cannon Vcs that went to Malta had two cannon removed immediately after they got to Malta.  In effect it was how they sent back up cannons to Malta by shipping the 4 cannon Vcs, but they were not used in combat that way.

The P400s and the P39D-1s with the 20mm cannons were spread among numerous squadrons and groups.

After I posted last night I went through some of the squadron histories I have.  Photo after photo of 20mm P400s and D-1s can be found in those combat units.
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Offline AWwrgwy

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« Reply #198 on: January 28, 2008, 12:39:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TimRas
"Nanette was an airplane. That should be made clear right at the start. She was not a very good plane; actually she stank. But she did a lot for me, I realize, as I look back on her."

http://www.amazon.com/NANETTE-Her-Pilots-Love-Story/dp/0874747376/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201543462&sr=1-3


Just ordered this from Abe Books , then I saw this.

Looks good.


wrngway
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #199 on: January 28, 2008, 12:40:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TimRas
"Nanette was an airplane. That should be made clear right at the start. She was not a very good plane; actually she stank. But she did a lot for me, I realize, as I look back on her. All the planes of that old war had distinguishing looks and personalities. The P-40, the Warhawk, was knobby and arrogant, a tomboy. The P-38, the Lightning, was lean and coltish, a rich debunte. The P-47, the Thunderbolt, was massive and dull, a peasant girl. The bombers had their distinctions, too, but I didn't know much about them. Of all the fighters, two could really excite a flyer. One was the P-51, Mustang, lovely to look at, honest, efficient, hardworking and dependable. In those days she was thought of as a wife, and I know men who married her, back then, and are still in love with her. The other was the P-39, the Airacobra. It was slim, with a gently curved tail section, a smoothly faired in air intake, and a perfectly rounded nose cone with its ugly, protruding cannon. But the Airacobra was lazy and slovenly and given to fits of vicious temper. It was a sexy machine, and rotten. Nanette was like that, and I was a little queer for her."

http://www.amazon.com/NANETTE-Her-Pilots-Love-Story/dp/0874747376/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201543462&sr=1-3



Absolutely the best fighter pilot book ever written.

Guppy35 comes from that book which I read for the first time when it came out back in about 1978.  Guppy was his P38 buddy and they were both in the 35th FG.  Guppy35
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Megalodon

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« Reply #200 on: January 28, 2008, 12:57:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Actually it does and no I don't agree :)  

The Universal wing was capable of holding 4 cannons, but in service it rarely did.  The only operational 4 cannon Vcs that I've ever found were 2 Squadron SAAF that flew Vokes filtered, 4 cannon Vcs in a ground attack role.  The 4 cannon Vcs that went to Malta had two cannon removed immediately after they got to Malta.  In effect it was how they sent back up cannons to Malta by shipping the 4 cannon Vcs, but they were not used in combat that way.

The P400s and the P39D-1s with the 20mm cannons were spread among numerous squadrons and groups.

After I posted last night I went through some of the squadron histories I have.  Photo after photo of 20mm P400s and D-1s can be found in those combat units.


Post them I"m sure Photo after Photo does not ad up to more than 10.


 P-400 were d1's and d'2. The only ones made were for the british and had 20mm. thats a max of 675 MAX! How ever I dont think the whole order was completed.

 I dont believe you answered my question. How many 4 cannon spit5's were produced? From what I can tell and find it was over 2400? Weather they were used or not. Last I noticed planes are mainly  put into the game depending on numbers built?

Using the max numbers for each.
2476/675=3.65 to 1 says your wrong.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 01:05:43 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #201 on: January 28, 2008, 01:11:33 PM »
You told him to post his pictures, post your references too. Anybody can quote numbers..... heres one now 8,721  :D

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #202 on: January 28, 2008, 01:13:19 PM »
2400 Spit Vc were produced, which means that 2400 Spit Vs with the Univeral wing came off the line.  They rolled off the line with 2 cannons and 4 303s as standard.

While it was possible to fit 4 cannons, due to inadequate heating for the outboard cannon bay, this was not done, except for low alt ground attack squadrons, 2 SAAF being the only one I've ever found that carried that armament.

As for 20mm P400, and P39D-1s, off the top of my head I can point to the 35th FS, 80th FS, 39th FS, 67th FS, 41st FS, 46th FS,  345th FS, 346th FS, 347th FS, all operating P400s or D-1s with 20mm cannons.

So those 20mm 39s that fired their guns in anger far exceeds the 2 SAAF Spitfire 4 Cannon Vcs.

And do you realize how much great nose art you wipe out if you don't have that version of the 39? :)

Got the scanner going.  20mm 39s from 6 different squadrons.  Safe to say the squadrons operated more then one example

46th FS on Makin Island


67th FS on Guadalcanal


80th FS Headhunters, New Guinea


35th FS, New Guinea


39th FS, New Guinea


41st FS, New Guinea
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 01:56:54 PM by Guppy35 »
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #203 on: January 28, 2008, 01:31:47 PM »
From "Nanette" by Edwards Park.  He flew 39s with the 41st FS, 35th FG in the Pacific

"The cannon was originally a 37-millimeter anti-tank gun which fired rather slowly-whump-whump-whump,  like that-and since you were sitting on it in the little cockpit, your legs straddling it, the firing of it vibrated your prostate so that the whole experience of war became mildly sexual.  I do not know if this was intentional.

Later cannon were 20-millimeter and fired much faster-babababababa,  like that--and titilated you in a subtly different way.  Some men enjoyed it more.   I was a 37 millimeter man myself."
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Offline Stang

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« Reply #204 on: January 28, 2008, 01:35:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
From "Nanette" by Edwards Park.  He flew 39s with the 41st FS, 35th FG in the Pacific

"The cannon was originally a 37-millimeter anti-tank gun which fired rather slowly-whump-whump-whump,  like that-and since you were sitting on it in the little cockpit, your legs straddling it, the firing of it vibrated your prostate so that the whole experience of war became mildly sexual.  I do not know if this was intentional.

Later cannon were 20-millimeter and fired much faster-babababababa,  like that--and titilated you in a subtly different way.  Some men enjoyed it more.   I was a 37 millimeter man myself."
:lol

lol good stuff.

Offline FireDrgn

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« Reply #205 on: January 28, 2008, 01:43:15 PM »
Guppy35     The 37mm cannon was that an A.P. round or a H.E.?   Either way i hope it comes close to the yak t cannon..
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Offline Ghastly

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« Reply #206 on: January 28, 2008, 01:56:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by llama

Don't forget that Chuck Yeager said it was his favorite fighter plane of all time...

-Llama


Were you at the WarBirds con where Jerry Collinsworth spoke?  He appeared to have disliked it immensely, saying that at one point during training exercises the one he was flying departed with almost no warning during maneuvers at about 6000 ft and he recovered just short of the ground... and that they lost several pilots to the P39's handling issues before they were reassigned Spitfires.

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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #207 on: January 28, 2008, 02:03:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghastly
Were you at the WarBirds con where Jerry Collinsworth spoke?  He appeared to have disliked it immensely, saying that at one point during training exercises the one he was flying departed with almost no warning during maneuvers at about 6000 ft and he recovered just short of the ground... and that they lost several pilots to the P39's handling issues before they were reassigned Spitfires.



Read "Nanette" :)  He talks about the 39 a lot.  Some of us old Airwarrior types know Earl Miller who flew 39s in the MTO.  He liked the 39.  

It sounds like it's one of those birds that you have to learn to fly and it takes a smooth hand.  So it shouldn't be a newbies plane if what the vets say is true about the real deal.

But it also sounds like once you got a handle on it's quirks  and stayed ahead of it, the 39 could do a nice job.

Earl Miller in a 39 on Corsica in 1944
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 02:14:33 PM by Guppy35 »
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Offline Megalodon

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« Reply #208 on: January 28, 2008, 02:17:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
2400 Spit Vc were produced, which means that 2400 Spit Vs with the Univeral wing came off the line.  They rolled off the line with 2 cannons and 4 303s as standard.

While it was possible to fit 4 cannons, due to inadequate heating for the outboard cannon bay, this was not done, except for low alt ground attack squadrons, 2 SAAF being the only one I've ever found that carried that armament.

As for 20mm P400, and P39D-1s, off the top of my head I can point to the 35th FS, 80th FS, 39th FS, 67th FS, 41st FS, 46th FS,  345th FS, 346th FS, 347th FS, all operating P400s or D-1s with 20mm cannons.

So those 20mm 39s that fired their guns in anger far exceeds the 2 SAAF Spitfire 4 Cannon Vcs.

And do you realize how much great nose art you wipe out if you don't have that version of the 39? :)

Got the scanner going.  20mm 39s from 6 different squadrons.  Safe to say the squadrons operated more then one example



Nice Pics :)

well yes I do and some of the best 39 nose art aswell but for a mere 176 planes it would be a major exception.

Yes Spit Vc's came off the line 2467 of them w 20mm and 3911 Spit Vb's w/ 4 .303 and 2 20mm came off the line?

yes most of those squads you mention had 15 planes or less a couple had 20. US Only had 176 and some of those were sent back as trainers. Using your number of squads <9> that flew p-400's/p39d1d2's a max possible19.5 per sqd.prolly more like 16.  Total! They were not sent more p-400's,  Man thats alot :D  And going fast. :)

As for  the nose art you are making very good point ;) but just not enough to warrant the plane.

 In any event there were far more VC's than 400's :) the russians stripped theres as well. replacing the 20mm with a 23mm or I think a 30mm. Have to check on that 1.


Nice shot of Earl :)
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline CAP1

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« Reply #209 on: January 28, 2008, 02:38:11 PM »
i can't wait to try it........but i also fear a new weapon for the HOtards...........think this'll be their new favorite ride:D
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