Author Topic: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII  (Read 19158 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #120 on: April 06, 2008, 02:32:19 PM »
I think many of you miss a good point that Lumpy is making. It is not a question of whether the strategic bombing campaign made a dent in the German war machine. It obviously did. The more interesting questions are: "was it worth it?" - in terms of were the required resources could be better spent elsewhere and "was this the right way to do it" - in terms of high alt heavy bomber stream and carpet bombing.

Its a fair argument, as long as you also include the resources committed by the Germans to defend against it, as Widewing alluded to earlier.  I suppose ultimately, you'd have to be able to quantify both the total Allied effort to make the attacks, and the German effort to defend against them, in order to truly approach a value with which to attribute the true cost effectiveness.  But, since apparently the documentation with which to create these comparisons is in question, its going to be tough to get either side of the argument to agree.

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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #121 on: April 06, 2008, 06:57:10 PM »
Doesn't matter how much stock you have on hand if you can't get that stock to the end user. The transportation system was a mess.

That I can agree with completely.


So your defending the 800+ tons of avgas figure in sept of 1944 as accurate?

I'm not "defending" anything, just posting the figures of the report. I have no personal knowledge pertaining to this situation as I wasn't even born back then. However the only documentation I have seen (which I have posted) suggests a different reality than the one you subscribe to ... with the exception of the graph Milo posted which is an unknown quantity as far as source is concerned.


As for a few of the other comments...

While operational sorties were up, training became almost nonexistant and many other elements like engine breakin etc were curtailed severly.

The strategic airwar was costly and its overall effectiveness when analysed in any single aspect can certainly be called into question. I think the real measure of impact was summed up very well in the quote I posted a few pages back. The overall effect on Germany was devestating and seperate from all other factors had brought the economy/infrastucture to a point of collapse by the end of 1944.

That is certainly a valid point of view, but as I've said earlier the RAF strategic campaign of eradicating German cities and USAAF campaign of eradicating Japanese cities en masse was effective (but morally questionable). What I'm calling into question is the effectiveness of the USAAF daylight, so called "precision" bombing campaign in Europe and the rationale of spending so much resources and lives on it. You'd have to separate the effect of the RAF night bombing on the German economy, which is an insurmountable task I think.


Trouble reading the graph gSholtz? At the begining of Sept 44 there was ~300t of avgas in stock and by the end of Sept 44 there was ~200t in stock.

No trouble at all Milo, but you seem to have some trouble since you obviously believe the graph shows tons when it actually shows thousands of tons (read the fine print in the lower left corner). ~300 thousand tons of avgas is more than they had in stock for most of 1942 and parts of 1943. ~200 thousand tons of avgas is the same amount in stock as in August-September 1942. The same rapid drop in avgas stocks is seen in the summer of 1941 indicating increased consumption as a result of the invasion of the Soviet Union. Changes in stock is determined by differences in production and consumption. Likewise the very high levels of avgas stock in the summer of 1944 would seem to be the result of low sortie rates, and thus low consumption rates for the Luftwaffe after their heavy losses in that period and the routing of the Luftwaffe in the west. Stock levels haven't been that high since early 1941. At the beginning of October 1944 the stocks were at approx. the same level as in August of 1942.


Its a fair argument, as long as you also include the resources committed by the Germans to defend against it, as Widewing alluded to earlier.  I suppose ultimately, you'd have to be able to quantify both the total Allied effort to make the attacks, and the German effort to defend against them, in order to truly approach a value with which to attribute the true cost effectiveness.  But, since apparently the documentation with which to create these comparisons is in question, its going to be tough to get either side of the argument to agree.

Yup, I agree with that as well.
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Offline Simaril

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2008, 09:43:36 AM »
I suspect you may be underestimating both the magnitude of Speer's accomplishments in industrial rationalization, and consequently the magnitude of effects from the strategic bombing effort itself.

However, like Widewing, I also suspect that all words spent taking a view different than yours are wasted.

First, you shrug off the manpower diversion effects by claiming the Germans so employed were not fit for front line service. I suppose that also means they weren't fit to work in factories or otherwise contribute to the total war effort; in fact, if it weren't for the air assault on Germany those men would likely have been completely dependent on government handouts for their sustenence. Logically, then, the strategic bombing campaign actually helped Germany's economic production by maximizing efficiency in an otherwise useless manpower pool!

Obviously ridiculous, but it's the corollary of your assertion that the manpower diversion had trivial effects. Since the implications of your claim are unsustainable, then logically the statement on which they were based must be incorrect. Even if we accept your unsubstantiated claim that those men weren't fit for the front lines, the diversion of so many from production of necesssity must be considered an indirect economic consequence of the bombing.

Second - the line of reasoning that claims redistribution of production to dispersed, often underground factories negated the effects ofbombing. Again, consider the corrolary...can we say that dispersion and underground manufacturing improved efficiencies? If so, wouldn't underground dispersed manufacturing be tha norm in other countries during the 1940s, and even today? On the contrary we see the exact opposite movements throughout the next half century: economic efficiency applies incredible pressure AWAY from small dispersed operations and toward centralization and economies of scale. Only with the globalization shifts made possible by technologic advances and reduced trade barriers do we see dispersion, and even then economies of scale reign. How many underground factories operate in your neighborhood?

Third come some very complex and in depth economic studies developed by post war economic historians. These go far beyond the graphs you've posted, because neither you, nor I, nor most post war data compilers have the background in economics to place simple output graphs in their appropriate context -- the entire econoic system of a country. I need to interrupt this for work duties, but I'll come back to review issues raised in a book I recently struggled through.
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #123 on: April 07, 2008, 12:13:13 PM »
I suspect you may be underestimating both the magnitude of Speer's accomplishments in industrial rationalization, and consequently the magnitude of effects from the strategic bombing effort itself.

As Humble put it :

German industrial infrastructure was decentralized and underutilized before the war. Further almost all german production was single shift thru out the war and few women were in the workforce. Many factories had excess tooling and some entire production lines were not in use even in 1943. The German war industry was actually less efficient then any other so it absorbed alot of "losses" without an adverse effect on productivity.

This perfectly illustrates one of the greatest pre-war misconceptions held about the effects of strategic bombing on industrialized societies. While it can be argued that the USAAF daylight bombing did reduce the German maximum industrial potential, actual production was much more limited by the inefficiencies inherent to all civilian, non-planned economies and thus flexible and adaptable to the effects of bombing. You could say that the USAAF forced the Germans to be more efficient in spite of themselves, though I doubt that will seem like an acceptable reason to those that lost loved ones over Germany.


However, like Widewing, I also suspect that all words spent taking a view different than yours are wasted.

The point of debate is not to change peoples minds, but to share information and points of view and broaden all our perspectives. If your intensions are to change my mind then you very well might fail (or perhaps not?), but your words are not wasted. Not to me at least.


First, you shrug off the manpower diversion effects by claiming the Germans so employed were not fit for front line service. I suppose that also means they weren't fit to work in factories or otherwise contribute to the total war effort; in fact, if it weren't for the air assault on Germany those men would likely have been completely dependent on government handouts for their sustenence. Logically, then, the strategic bombing campaign actually helped Germany's economic production by maximizing efficiency in an otherwise useless manpower pool!

Obviously ridiculous, but it's the corollary of your assertion that the manpower diversion had trivial effects. Since the implications of your claim are unsustainable, then logically the statement on which they were based must be incorrect. Even if we accept your unsubstantiated claim that those men weren't fit for the front lines, the diversion of so many from production of necesssity must be considered an indirect economic consequence of the bombing.

First of all you add false factors to my original statement and extrapolate an absurd argument from it which you then attribute to me. As argumentative fallacies go that one is a Doozy.

Secondly, shortfalls in the labour force due to the manpower demands of the war was compensated by compulsory workers from the occupied western territories and slave labour from the east. This was one of Speers greatest achievements and crimes. There was no lack of industrial manpower in the Reich, and unlike the Japanese the Germans didnt send its skilled workers to the warfront.

Also I have never said there was no economic effect of the USAAF bombing campaign, just that the effect was "little" and not worth the effort.


Second - the line of reasoning that claims redistribution of production to dispersed, often underground factories negated the effects ofbombing. Again, consider the corrolary...can we say that dispersion and underground manufacturing improved efficiencies? If so, wouldn't underground dispersed manufacturing be tha norm in other countries during the 1940s, and even today? On the contrary we see the exact opposite movements throughout the next half century: economic efficiency applies incredible pressure AWAY from small dispersed operations and toward centralization and economies of scale. Only with the globalization shifts made possible by technologic advances and reduced trade barriers do we see dispersion, and even then economies of scale reign. How many underground factories operate in your neighborhood?

German production was already dispersed before the war (though not underground). And your assertion that production was not dispersed in post war economies is wrong. Even if ownership of assets were increasingly centralized in large conglomerates the actual production assets were still geographically dispersed in any given country. Also smaller factories with suitable tooling were subcontracted to increase production further increasing dispersing and reducing vulnerability to bombing.



As you can see even in 1939 the production and assembly of Ju 88 airframes was well distributed through subcontracting.

In my neighbourhood there are several underground production and storage facilities. Most are part of the power and oil industry. Also being a neighbour to Russia has been an incentive to better protect out national assets.


Third come some very complex and in depth economic studies developed by post war economic historians. These go far beyond the graphs you've posted, because neither you, nor I, nor most post war data compilers have the background in economics to place simple output graphs in their appropriate context -- the entire econoic system of a country. I need to interrupt this for work duties, but I'll come back to review issues raised in a book I recently struggled through.

Ill wait with anticipation.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 12:23:46 PM by Lumpy »
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

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Offline Old Sport

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #124 on: April 07, 2008, 01:03:07 PM »
I do not post the following as proof of any kind because I do not have the link to it anymore, and I haven't subsequently found a source for it. I did collect it while surfing through what I thought were reliable sources, but who knows...

Quote
In an interview in 1976 Speer highlighted the great numbers of resources dedicated to combating the Allied air offensive. During the interview he stated without this great drain on our manpower, logistics, and weapons, we might well have knocked Russia out of the war before your invasion of France.

Perhaps someone has access to the 1976 interview? I do not.

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #125 on: April 07, 2008, 02:02:42 PM »
I think Speer includes the RAF bombing in his comment. When the USA entered the war the Battle for Moscow was already lost. The Germans were well on their long retreat to Berlin before any USAAF bomb landed on Germany. In fact the first USAAF raid on Germany didn't happen until wednesday, January 27, 1943 ... three years after the RAF started its night-bombing campaign of German cities.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #126 on: April 07, 2008, 04:21:49 PM »
... and only 6 days before the German defeat at Stalingrad, and 6 months before the German defeat at Kursk.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Iron_Cross

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #127 on: April 07, 2008, 06:38:39 PM »
Lumpy, The Eastern front was a whole different kettle of fish.  The Germans had made a titanic and classic blunder.  They failed to take in to account the shear scale of the amount of territory they had to cross/conquer, stretching supply lines to near snapping.  That coupled with the notorious Russian winter, that the German generals didn't prepare for because they were so confident of a "quick" victory, spelled doom for the German army in the East.  The Russian plan of moving entire armaments factories East of the Ural mountains, out of range of the Luftwaffe paid huge dividens in the start of 43, as those factories were outproducing German factories in planes, tanks, and other material. 

The Russians found a quality in quantity, whereas the German designers were looking for quality over quantity.  By February 43 the superior numbers of the Russian army made the war in the East a forgone conclusion, despite the Germans having superior equipment.  Sure the Panther and Tiger tanks could engage Russian T-34/76's beyond 2000m, but how many could it take out before the rest flanked it and killed it?

BAH!!!  Back on topic!

It is my considered opinion that the relentless pressure of both daylight and night bombing by the American and British allies on the German infrastructure was costly, but required to bring about the colapse of the Germans ability to fight on all fronts.  The tactical use of airpower could only contribute to the particular area/region that it operated in.  if nothing happened to interdict the quick re-equipment of damaged units(That is Strategic air) Tac air could only help achieve local victories, not win a war.

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #128 on: April 07, 2008, 07:00:14 PM »
Why did you even go off topic in the first place? Don't you see that the Germans had lost the war before the USAAF even started bombing Germany? And six months later, after the battle of Kursk even the most pro-German historian would tell you there was no hope for Germany to win the war, and that was well before the USAAF bombing had any impact. The battle of Kursk was over even before the first misshappened raids on Schweinfurt-Regensburg. How and why the Germans lost on the eastern front is immaterial to this discussion; if you wish to discuss it further please start a separate thread.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:01:56 PM by Lumpy »
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Iron_Cross

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #129 on: April 07, 2008, 08:11:46 PM »
Well you brought up the Eastern front.  The Eastern front was a forgone conclusion Because of the Strategic campaign by the Americans and British.  Otherwise The Germans would have been able to stalemate the Russians by replacing damaged/destroyed  equipment at the rate they were loosing it, and then when back at full production gone on to maybe win the East.(not likely)  Germany would still likely loose due to the fact that they didn't have the manpower to win that kind of war of attrition.

Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #130 on: April 07, 2008, 08:17:01 PM »
Tell me Iron Cross, did you even read this thread?
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Stoney

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #131 on: April 07, 2008, 09:55:39 PM »
Don't you see that the Germans had lost the war before the USAAF even started bombing Germany?

As a corollary, you can argue the same point about the Japanese by stating "the Japanese had lost the war before they even attacked Pearl Harbor".    Sorry for the incoherence, but I don't think this is an statement you want to make.  The war still had to be fought if only to convince the antagonists of the truth of that very statement.

One of the best statements I've read regarding this thought is from Eisenhower who stated (I believe in the book Ambrose wrote about him) was that the Allied high command believed the issue very much in doubt, even into early 1944.  I can't remember if that's the correct source or not.  Regardless, perhaps the Allied perception at the time should be a more important consideration than what we can now acknowledge, through the use of hindsight.

One last thought...before criticizing the U.S. belief in daylight precision bombing, it is important to realize the distinction that most U.S. crews in Europe thought about themselves versus their British counterparts and their tactics.  With FDR making a most opportune use of the Japanese "terror" bombing of China in the late 30's, and that propaganda still fresh in the minds of both the U.S. populace and USAAF, I think its important to consider their doctrine with that in mind.
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #132 on: April 07, 2008, 11:16:51 PM »
As a corollary, you can argue the same point about the Japanese by stating "the Japanese had lost the war before they even attacked Pearl Harbor".    Sorry for the incoherence, but I don't think this is an statement you want to make.  The war still had to be fought if only to convince the antagonists of the truth of that very statement.

Actually the Japanese lost the war when they attacked Pearl Harbor. Admiral Yamamoto even knew this before the attack and argued against it with several Japanese Cabinet members before the war, where he used the famous words: "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

However, I digress ... The purpose of my comments on the Soviets having already won the war before the USAAF entered the equation are twofold: 1. Support my argument that the USAAF bombing campaign was ineffective and at best only shortened the war by a few months. 2. Disprove inane claims like those posed by Iron Cross above that the USAAF bombing campaign actually won the war in Europe. To anyone without USAAF/"America! F*** Yeah!" beer goggles on it's clear that it didn't. And compared to the results the whole campaign was a wasteful use of lives and resources. Thousands of men flying extremely expensive machines as Luftwaffe bait.

But let me just add that I have the benefit of hindsight and that the USAAF at the time believed they were doing the right thing. When they realized things were not going as planned they were so committed to the campaign that they had little choice but to try and make the best of it. I am in no way criticizing the 8th AAF or their men... I am criticizing the people who propagate the myth that the 8th AAF was a decisive factor in winning the war in Europe, and those who think strategic bombing with conventional munitions was effective (I do not consider firebombing conventional).


One last thought...before criticizing the U.S. belief in daylight precision bombing, it is important to realize the distinction that most U.S. crews in Europe thought about themselves versus their British counterparts and their tactics.  With FDR making a most opportune use of the Japanese "terror" bombing of China in the late 30's, and that propaganda still fresh in the minds of both the U.S. populace and USAAF, I think its important to consider their doctrine with that in mind.

Oh I agree that the 8th AAF's actions were far less morally questionable than what RAF Bomber Command was doing. However, the credit and respect the 8th AAF deserve for their show of restraint does not rub off on the USAAF as a whole considering what their brothers in arms were doing to Japanese cities. When it comes to killing innocent people in WWII only the SS did worse than the USAAF and RAF.

But again we digress.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 11:21:50 PM by Lumpy »
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P

Offline Stoney

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #133 on: April 08, 2008, 01:18:04 AM »
...the results the whole campaign was a wasteful use of lives and resources. Thousands of men flying extremely expensive machines as Luftwaffe bait.

Again, I'd state that to those at the time, it would be impossible for SHAEF's air staff to come to the same conclusion.  To separate the decision making from the context with which they were made is not fair, not even in hindsight.  Those folks that designed, equipped, planned, and executed the 8th AF campaign were believers in the effacy of strategic bombing.  And, there were a lot of other folks in other air forces on both sides of the war that believed in it as well.  To say it was a 'wasteful' use of lives and resources is debatable and forever will be.  Interestingly enough, the Allies would not have owned the skies over Western Europe had the 8th AF campaign never been conducted, and that's regardless of any perceived or actual damage done to German industry.  Not because they interrupted fuel or aircraft, but because the Allies destroyed the Luftwaffe in the air and on the ground.


Quote
I am criticizing the people who propagate the myth that the 8th AAF was a decisive factor in winning the war in Europe, and those who think strategic bombing with conventional munitions was effective (I do not consider firebombing conventional).

Decisive, no, at least not from a strictly military sense.  Personally, I am a skeptic of strategic bombing and forever have been (at least since I've been militarily aware).  I can only think of two instances where the use of airpower has been decisive--August 1945 and the aforementioned Linebacker  campaigns.  But, the 8th AF campaign certainly was important, even crucial to the overall Allied strategy in Western Europe.  It affected so many facets of the war in ETO that I believe you must separate its actual results against industry and consider it more broadly in order to properly frame its importance.

Quote
Oh I agree that the 8th AAF's actions were far less morally questionable than what RAF Bomber Command was doing. However, the credit and respect the 8th AAF deserve for their show of restraint does not rub off on the USAAF as a whole considering what their brothers in arms were doing to Japanese cities. When it comes to killing innocent people in WWII only the SS did worse than the USAAF and RAF.

In making the comparison, I was not making an argument for the morality of precision bombing.  I was making the argument that much of the "precision" bombing thought was considered the 'proper' application versus the random destruction of their British counterparts--there's a doctrinal difference there that was driven by the political considerations (with respect to 8th AF only).  The comparison between the SS, USAAF, and RAF is not helpful--not at all.
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: Humble and the failure of strategic air warfare in WWII
« Reply #134 on: April 08, 2008, 02:34:07 AM »
Again, I'd state that to those at the time, it would be impossible for SHAEF's air staff to come to the same conclusion.  To separate the decision making from the context with which they were made is not fair, not even in hindsight.  Those folks that designed, equipped, planned, and executed the 8th AF campaign were believers in the effacy of strategic bombing.  And, there were a lot of other folks in other air forces on both sides of the war that believed in it as well.

It is annoying that I have to repeat myself:

I am in no way criticizing the 8th AAF or their men... I am criticizing the people who propagate the myth that the 8th AAF was a decisive factor in winning the war in Europe, and those who think strategic bombing with conventional munitions was effective (I do not consider firebombing conventional).


Interestingly enough, the Allies would not have owned the skies over Western Europe had the 8th AF campaign never been conducted, and that's regardless of any perceived or actual damage done to German industry.  Not because they interrupted fuel or aircraft, but because the Allies destroyed the Luftwaffe in the air and on the ground.

The 8th Army Air Force wouldnt just have disappeared from the war if the Campaign had not taken place. Again I annoyingly have to repeat myself:

This is what I find curious: Why do some people believe that if the strategic bombing campaign didn't happen then all the resources and planes used on it would simply "disappear" from the war? If the resources and manpower spent on the strategic bombing campaign had been used bolstering the Soviet air force with more planes and also spent on a tactical air force in Britain, the Luftwaffe would have been completely swamped and quickly destroyed.

If the USAF had used the vast amount of resources spent on building its strategic air force to instead build a tactical air force the invasion of France could have been made a lot earlier. With the huge production capacity of the United States thousands of fighter-bombers and strike aircraft (like the Mosquito) could have been operational in 1943. Achieving local air dominance over Normandy and destroying the Luftwaffe in France would not have been a problem. Disrupting and destroying German ground forces would also have been much easier with such a force. The USAAF backed the wrong horse with regard to air warfare doctrines, and suffered for it in WWII. They had to fight with what they had instead of what they should have had.


Edit: Make that both the USAAF and the RAF. Just consider the might of their combined tactical air forces had the resources and manpower spent on all those Lancs and B-17/24 been used on Mosquitoes, Typhoons, P-47's etc. It would have been unstoppable by the Luftwaffe ... in 1943. IMHO of course (hypotheticals again).


In making the comparison, I was not making an argument for the morality of precision bombing.  I was making the argument that much of the "precision" bombing thought was considered the 'proper' application versus the random destruction of their British counterparts--there's a doctrinal difference there that was driven by the political considerations (with respect to 8th AF only).  The comparison between the SS, USAAF, and RAF is not helpful--not at all.

Yes there was doctrinal differences and the USAAF backed the wrong doctrine. When the RAF tested the concept in 1941 with a small force of B-17s they correctly concluded that it didnt work properly and abandoned daylight, long-range bombing. The USAAF failed to learn from the British experience and suffered for it. As for the comparison, helpful or not it is still accurate.
“I’m an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even – when I feel like it – rip the souls from little girls and now until kingdom come the only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never ever understanding why.”

-Archangel Gabriel, The P