Author Topic: Arena caps are...  (Read 12860 times)

Offline Twizzty

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #210 on: October 14, 2008, 02:15:21 PM »
I think Snailman went over a portion of how it works:
You were seeing the true state of affairs.

The dynamic cap of LWO is controlled by LWB and vice versa. When dynamic caps are enabled, one arena's max size increases as soon the other arena player number reaches 70% of it's current capacity.

Example:

Orange 120/100 (indicating that max capacity was recently reduced)
Blue 100/150

Now when Blue reaches 105 players, Orange cap will go up:

Orange 120/200
Blue 105/150



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Offline straffo

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #211 on: October 14, 2008, 03:06:16 PM »

Shirley you're not serious?  :huh

try between 21:00 and 22:00 CET (UTC+1)

Offline projoe

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #212 on: October 14, 2008, 03:40:34 PM »
Maybe a dumb question or dumb scenario. Was just curious if more countries have ever been tested?
Was thinking maybe 5 or even 7 countries?
I know starting out it was 4 countries.(red, green, gold, purple)
Then it was two in warbirds. (axis v allies)
Just thinking of.... one arena, large maps, 5 countries?
How would that work? anyone??
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Offline bongaroo

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #213 on: October 14, 2008, 05:02:31 PM »
Yes, many different numbers of countries have been attempted.  HTC found 3 to be the best for balance.  A search would find posts of his stating this.  You'll know its him by the bad spelling, at least before someone gave him firefox with the built in spellchecker.
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Offline MajIssue

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #214 on: October 14, 2008, 05:04:34 PM »
Thanks for the "411" Lusche/snailman... You can't be TOO well informed
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #215 on: October 14, 2008, 07:28:23 PM »
Zazen13: I am not exactly naive when it comes to creating online flight sims.


HiTech


No doubt, I would never even insinuate that you are. You are one of my most highly regarded small shop game developers, followed closely by a company called Stardock and then Paradox Interactive. I also would never expect or even want a developer to react exclusively, in knee-jerk fashion, to sentiments expressed on message forums which are notoriously limited in their reflection of overall player opinion. Take the time to sit and watch the MA, you will notice players choose to congregate in large clusters, this is human nature at work, it is where your product shines. That's not going to be "squeaky wheels" you're seeing, that's going to be the will and desire for certain forms of gameplay over other less desired forms. 

Game developers tend to fall into the pitfall of looking at numbers and drawing erroneous conclusions about their community's desires and growth with rose colored glasses rather than direct observation of their behavior which is a reflection of what players find fun about the product or an indication of what they do not find fun. Developers always looks at + growth as a "YES" vote for all of their changes. What they don't see is the possibility that one or several of their changes caused what would have otherwise been a 25% growth to be only a 10% growth due to subscriber losses and poorer new player retention.

As a case in point for your product. Rather than expend programming resources trying to coerce and restrict players in an effort to organize them differently against their nature, modify the game to achieve that in a natural and voluntary way. For example, rather than cap'ing arenas to artificially "spread out" players, more fully utilize the large maps by creating a compelling reasons to spread out a bit by diversifying goals and objectives within the map's strategic context thereby creating more natural focal points of conflict and areas of contention. Your huge maps have enough play area for 3,000 people, we all choose to play in just 3 sectors because we enjoy the high player density and there's really no compelling reason to spread out with the current "mickey mouse" strategic system.

In my personal opinion, the heavy handed approach of splitting arenas and hard cap'ing them is more or less a cop out and a cheap substitute for the implimentation of innovate design concepts creatively composed to use human nature to achieve design goals rather than fight human nature, which is like pissing into the wind. I can think of 43 ways just off the top of my head to encourage more fluid player distribution while at the same time increasing player choices and freedoms rather than inhibiting them. Admittedly I am not a programmer, the implementation may exceed available resources or be impractical in some other way. But, your product is so well designed at its core and the infrastructure is already in place that to build upon it to achieve the same goals you strive for with arena caps would almost be trivial to accomplish from a purely logistical perspective. It seems a disservice to your product and your community to not endeavor to methodically do so as time and resources allow.



« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 07:44:39 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #216 on: October 14, 2008, 07:44:17 PM »
Sometimes you can out think yourself Zazen :)

The sheep will follow the sheep

It means HTC has to be the shepard and direct the flock in the best overall direction.

I believe you are also filtering it through your own preference of play which is much more about being the wolf above the sheep and living that way.

HTC has to consider all the different players and playing styles in the game.  And no this isn't war, so creating some balance is part of putting some fairness in the game.

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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #217 on: October 14, 2008, 07:49:33 PM »
Sometimes you can out think yourself Zazen :)

The sheep will follow the sheep

It means HTC has to be the shepard and direct the flock in the best overall direction.

I believe you are also filtering it through your own preference of play which is much more about being the wolf above the sheep and living that way.

HTC has to consider all the different players and playing styles in the game.  And no this isn't war, so creating some balance is part of putting some fairness in the game.



What I'm saying is if you have to programmatically fight human nature that's a clear indication your design is flawed. A perfectly designed game would use human nature to channel and funnel players to achieve gameplay balance objectives while at the same time increasing freedom of choice and playstyle options rather than inhibit them...
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 08:00:05 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2008, 08:26:52 PM »
What I'm saying is if you have to programmatically fight human nature that's a clear indication your design is flawed. A perfectly designed game would use human nature to channel and funnel players to achieve gameplay balance objectives while at the same time increasing freedom of choice and playstyle options rather than inhibit them...


Not really.  Relying on human nature to achieve gameplay balance is a flawed idea since not everyone has the same notion of what the balance should be.  In my company's games, if we would let the players dictate what the balance should be, there would be no clear notion as to what that balance is and the result would be a very flawed and unbalanced game.  There has to be a balance and sometimes that balance requires the developers to design it into the game.  Ask any game designer or developer that has worked on an online game and they will tell you the same thing.

HiTech used a good example with Warbirds and what happened to it after he left.  You really can't get a better example of what happens in an online game where you allow the player base to make most of the game design and balance decisions.

On the other hand, if you ignore your player base and don't listen to any of the feedback, you're going to get the same result.  Age of Conan is an example of that and only recently have they started to listen to their player base but sadly, the damage done by the previous game design team may be too great in the eyes of the community to successfully turn around that game.  AoC went from a 750k+ paid subscriber base at launch and dropped to around a current 400k paid subscriber base.  They lost a 1/4 of a million subscribers in less than 3 months because the development team would not listen to the player base.

It's a fine line sometimes and one that gets ignored to often by both developers and the community.


ack-ack



« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 08:39:40 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #219 on: October 14, 2008, 08:29:10 PM »
What I'm saying is if you have to programmatically fight human nature that's a clear indication your design is flawed. A perfectly designed game would use human nature to channel and funnel players to achieve gameplay balance objectives while at the same time increasing freedom of choice and playstyle options rather than inhibit them...

Human nature is to survive. Flying in the biggest pack and avoiding opposition will ensure this. Is this what  you are advocating?
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Offline Warspawn

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #220 on: October 14, 2008, 08:56:52 PM »
Hmm...

Tuesday, Titanic, now has 700 people in it.

On a weekday evening.

What other weekday evening Mon-Thurs has a combined total of 700 for the LW arenas?  I can't recall seeing 350+ per arena during primetime PST during the week, ever.

Maybe they should get out of that big arena.  It's darn unhealth for 'em!   :P  I feel like I'm tellin' kids to get off the lawn and come play indoors on the Nintendo because it's better for 'em.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 08:59:17 PM by Warspawn »
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Offline 999000

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #221 on: October 14, 2008, 09:03:24 PM »
I Love Zazen!...Can I question the basic premis that an unbalanced game is unhealthy????
Churchill didn't call up Hitler and ask for a fair fight....
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #222 on: October 14, 2008, 09:04:58 PM »
Human nature is to survive. Flying in the biggest pack and avoiding opposition will ensure this. Is this what  you are advocating?

Actually, most are motivated by fun and adrenalin. Run down the roster one evening. It's obvious survival is very low on the list of priorities for 95% of the players.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #223 on: October 14, 2008, 09:05:25 PM »
I Love Zazen!...Can I question the basic premis that an unbalanced game is unhealthy????
Churchill didn't call up Hitler and ask for a fair fight....

Churchill and Hitler didn't play a game...
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Arena caps are...
« Reply #224 on: October 14, 2008, 09:09:20 PM »
Actually, most are motivated by fun and adrenalin. Run down the roster one evening. It's obvious survival is very low on the list of priorities for 95% of the players.
Nope, if it were, you wouldn't see the map look the way it does.
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