Unofficial Trainers - Read This Please

[mechanic]

I did it for 17 minutes once, as I described earlier. I've had it happen many times for over 5 minutes. I never thought to count the number of complete 360 revolutions we had in the 17 minute one, but it had to be 75 or more I would guess...Part of the reason I pancaked was my arm was sore as hell...

two possible reasons why.

1: you both flew exactly the same turns with the same throttle, control input and turn radius through out the 17 mins. This opponent and you had a very rare and wonderfull fight becuase you are almost completely alike in style and aircraft.

2: that you both let the plane type determine the edge rather than individual style or risk commanding a quicker conclusion.

either way a long fight closely matched can be some of the best fun.



edit: a 3rd option i can see:

think of it like tennis. a very close match on deuce can swing advantage one way or the other for an extended time if both players score alternate points. You can win an inch and next turn lose an inch repeatedly. This is more likely than both parties flying exactly the same.

[2bighorn]

We're talking stallfights on the deck, those are almost 100% in the horizontal.

That's where you are very wrong.

[Zazen13]

two possible reasons why.

1: you both flew exactly the same turns with the same throttle, control input and turn radius through out the 17 mins. This opponent and you had a very rare and wonderfull fight becuase you are almost completely alike in style and aircraft.

2: that you both let the plane type determine the edge rather than individual style or risk commanding a quicker conclusion.

either way a long fight closely matched can be some of the best fun.



edit: a 3rd option i can see:

think of it like tennis. a very close match on deuce can swing advantage one way or the other for an extended time if both players score alternate points. You can win an inch and next turn lose an inch repeatedly. This is more likely than both parties flying exactly the same.

It's probably a combination of all three to varying degrees in most situations. That's why most duels don't last more than 2-3 turns unless the pilots are equally skilled. If either one exploits the merge, the other blows the merge or there is a large skill disparity that could all result in an immediate E/Angle advantage. The only way that scenario could possibly result in anything vaguely resembling a stallfight is if the one with more E blows it or has the most incredibly atrocious gunnery imaginable.

[Zazen13]

That's where you are very wrong.

Ok..Have a nice day! 

[Widewing]

Ok..Have a nice day! 

2bighorn is right. The usual winner of a flaps-out stall fights is the guy who best manages his E and converts it into the vertical more effectively. E-management at 130 mph is far more critical than it is at 400 mph. Conserving E is literally an art form. Easy on the controls, don't load the airframe needlessly, flaps management, throttle management, careful use of rudder and so on are all key elements. Getting too far behind the power curve usually means death by guns or an auger.

I've fought long, arduous duels where speeds hovered around 150 mph or less and there wasn't a single horizontal turn to be seen. Your better duelists will not be doing much maneuvering horizontal.

My regards,

Widewing

[mechanic]

he is right Zaz im sorry. Stall fights on the deck are about the furthest thing away from keeping it horizontal imaginable.

A well flown stall fight would look abstract from the side profile, something like this or something much different, but nothing purely horizontal about it.
something like this:

[Zazen13]

he is right Zaz im sorry. Stall fights on the deck are about the furthest thing away from keeping it horizontal imaginable.

A well flown stall fight would look abstract from the side profile, something like this or something much different, but nothing purely horizontal about it.
something like this:
(Image removed from quote.)

That pic looks like a combo of vertical/rolling scissors fight to me. I wouldn't consider a fight a stallfight just because at the top of a scissor you are at/close to stall speed. A stall fight is when you are both turning as tightly as possible "riding the edge" practically all the time, not just at the peaks and valleys of a sequence of moves, that's more angles fighting which would necessarily have some E fighting component.

And to Widewing. I consider rudder authority, throttle control, loading etc all part of "riding the edge". I suppose we could pick apart those components and consider them separate aspects, but it's just part of "flying on the edge". Any true stallfight I've ever seen the noses are so heavy from E deprivation that neither plane can pull its nose up more than a few degrees off the horizon making it almost purely horizontal. I guess we just have a different idea of what a real stallfight is.

It's almost like you are treating Angles fight and Stall fight as if they are synonymous. I just leafed through Shaw's, they don't sound or look synonymous to me...

[mechanic]

perhaps then terminology should best be applied from our community alone, because unless i am mistaken most people would consider a stall fight an advanced form of rolling scissors where the loops are divded with induced stall turns.

[Zazen13]

perhaps then terminology should best be applied from our community alone, because unless i am mistaken most people would consider a stall fight and advanced form of rolling scissors where the loops are divded with induced stall turns.

That's Angles fighting. Do you own a copy of Shaw's? it defines them...

[mechanic]

no i never studied dogfighting outside of the arena here. i can see why you would call that stall fighting and you are correct, it is riding the edge of the stall whilst maintaining the most effective flat turn to within a few degrees. Im sure the correct term for that specific type of stalemate or slow win is a luftberry.

[Zazen13]

no i never studied dogfighting outside of the arena here. i can see why you would call that stall fighting and you are correct, it is riding the edge of the stall whilst maintaining the most effective flat turn to within a few degrees. Im sure the correct term for that specific type of stalemate or slow win is a luftberry.

Yea that's it, you got it. Angles fighting is the expenditure of energy to create an angle even if it means a net loss of energy. Energy fighting is the sacrifice of angle to create/equalize/negate an energy advantage. So, your rolling/vertical scissors example is really a microcosm of both E fighting and Angles fighting depending on which phase of it you look at in isolation. It's definitely no where near stall fighting.

[2bighorn]

Zazen, I was just looking into the book. I really can't find where Shaw defines stall fighting as flat horizontal turns. Could you help me with page reference?

While we are at it I have found reference to unloading the Gs when taking the shots. Chapter "Fighter Weapons" page 19 (second paragraph, quotations not counted).

Meanwhile you can read about how community defined stall fighting (from AW days):
http://www.netaces.org/stall-1/stall-1.htm

[Ack-Ack]

Meanwhile you can read about how community defined stall fighting (from AW days):
http://www.netaces.org/stall-1/stall-1.htm

To me, that's how I've always defined stall fighting.

As for stall fighting being a purely horizontal technique, an example of a stall fighting manuever that can be used in a P-38 is the oft mentioned 'Cloverleaf'.  Those are a series of vertical stall turns the P-38 performs, not horizontal.


ack-ack

[BaldEagl]

Your all right to some degree.  Zazen is discussing the fight that degenerates into a horizontal lufbery where neither plane can gain a quick advantage.  I've been in plenty of these and some have gone on so long I was getting bored (5-10 minutes isn't unusual).  In this fight, the first guy to auger or the first guy to try to break out of it dies.

I've also been in plenty of stall fights with vertical and rolling elements.  These are much more fun but also very difficult to gain an angular advantage due to the low energy states.  Even in the downward portions you may not gain E as you're continually trading it to gain angles.  The most difficult parts of these fights is getting enough E on the upswing to avoid a stall at the top.  In these fights, if not lost by angles, the loser usually stalls over the top or doesn't have enough room to pull up at the bottom.  In either case it results in an auger.

The common element in both these fights is that you're riding the edge of stability in your plane the entire time and that is, in my opinion, the definition of a stall fight.

[mechanic]

Yea that's it, you got it. Angles fighting is the expenditure of energy to create an angle even if it means a net loss of energy. Energy fighting is the sacrifice of angle to create/equalize/negate an energy advantage. So, your rolling/vertical scissors example is really a microcosm of both E fighting and Angles fighting depending on which phase of it you look at in isolation. It's definitely no where near stall fighting.

 Sure my diagram does not show every aspect of stall fighting, on the same note the flat turn style of turn fighting is using even less components of dogfighting as a whole and still being classed as a form of stall fighting. What my diagram does show is a far btter use of a stall in a fight, using the stall to tighten turns far past the possible angle of a flat horizontal turn. This is just as much more of an advanced vision of what the stall can do for angles fighting then a flat turn. Bighorn once explained to me that there is no such thing as being an 'E fighter' or 'Turn fighter' etc...every turn we make is some combination of many aspect of flight in general, indeed wise words. Just like when Slapshot told me that some people are plane dependant while others worry about who is flying it not what is being flown. Stall fighting in the horizontal plane is a near suicide move vs someone using vertical and horizontal elements.