"Whining about getting jumped by multiple enemies"

[Chemdawg]

Amazing..... I actually agree with an Obama supporter.   

[Vudak]

I can't find anything I disagree with at all in there 

I find a few things to disagree with.  Especially the parts about how the "Vets" aren't, apparently, helping out the new guys.

As far as the historical precedence for the "mob mentality" just google Watling Street.  Then read up large formations in air to air combat.  They are not the most effective unit, by a long shot.  A total "waste of resources," to put it in terms my base-taking friends can understand.

[BaldEagl]

Again this post is NOT about so much comparing real-life to a game. The only reason I posted the excerpt from Major McGuire is to show that there is a historical precedence for the mob-mentality. I am sorry that I posted this now because the entire point of the post was missed. Either that or it was ignored to push an agenda of 1v1 is the only "honorable" kills. But I think BnZ said it best earlier in this topic when he said "You will almost never shoot anybody down in a "right" way, nor will I or most anybody else. No matter how you shoot them down, there is always this or that. You had a better plane, you had an E-advantage, you had numbers, the opponent was AFK or the sun was in their eyes. The only thing you can do, if you are interested in making other players happy, is die easily and die often." But one more thing, If this game is all about the actual air to air combat, then why are there bases and territories to captured? Seems to me that if the entire purpose was to shoot down the enemy, then perhaps the concept of capturing bases and strats should be removed from the game. While we are at it we should remove field ack, ord, bombers, missions, etc...because if it is all about air to air combat, what do we need the rest of it for? Seems like a useless distraction to me. Also Guppy, gaining the "respect" of people in the game is no longer about how much you help when your country calls for it. It isn't about coming up with strategies that will help your country win. Now all it is about is your score, and how many kills you land. And that my friend is sad. If a newbie comes in and doesn't have the 4-5 hours daily to devote to this game to get "good," no matter how hard that person tries, he doesn't gain the "respect" for trying, or attempting to learn. Yes I admit I am hard on the Newbies that come in asking how to fly or how to land or shoot or whatever inane question they come up with that could have easily been read on the website. But kids like Lt. Manny or some of those with zip-code names, who actually try to learn the more advanced things, aren't given any respect simply because their voice is high-pitched, no matter how hard they try. And with that attitude, alot of the "squeekers" get fed up with the constant disparagement and belittlement and then hit back by griefing the older sticks. Can you really blame them? If you want the community to come together, lead by example. Let the "older sticks" give a little respect out from the get-go instead of sitting in their ivory towers judging all the little peons like myself who aren't quite as well practiced.  The "Vets" are the ones who keep this communities' core operating, but please remember that we were all newbs at one time.
“This is the final test of a gentleman: his respect for those who can be of no possible service to him” -William Lyon Phelps 
I think some of the "Vets", and not all and not even most, but some would do well to remember this.

Ever hear of the paragraph?  It makes things much easier to read/comprehend.

As to the original post all I saw was someone trying to justify hoard mentality.  We all paly to have fun.  Just how much fun do you think the guy getting ganged is having?  3 on 1 is at least reasonable and gives a better stick a fighting chance.  Anything more than that is simply unsportsmanlike.  Of course you can argue that sportsmanship wasn't part of real life either but this isn't real life, it's a game.

I generally fly alone.  I've had nice 1 on 1/1 on 2's turn into 1 on 10's and even 1 on 20's.  Does it really take that many little hoardlets to kill me?  I'm guessing it wasn't even that much fun for 19 of them, especially since there were no other cons around.

[Vudak]

As to the original post all I saw was someone trying to justify hoard mentality.  We all paly to have fun.  Just how much fun do you think the guy getting ganged is having?  3 on 1 is at least reasonable and gives a better stick a fighting chance.  Anything more than that is simply unsportsmanlike.  Of course you can argue that sportsmanship wasn't part of real life either but this isn't real life, it's a game.

Yep.

And you know, it's not only unsporting to your foe, but to your friends as well.  THEY'VE been doing all the work, THEY'VE been bleeding the guy of all his E, THEY'RE wondering who this fella is that can last so long against them, THEY'RE the ones that deserve this kill, and you just come in late to the party and take the scalp and credit?

Poor form all around to be the 4th in.  The person who does it on purpose is selfish, end of story.  If you've been playing less than two months, you have an excuse.  Otherwise...

[GrimWulf]

Ever hear of the paragraph?  It makes things much easier to read/comprehend.

Sorry I am terrible about that. I get into a rant and forget all about proper form. My apologies .

As to the original post all I saw was someone trying to justify hoard mentality.  We all paly to have fun.  Just how much fun do you think the guy getting ganged is having?  3 on 1 is at least reasonable and gives a better stick a fighting chance.  Anything more than that is simply unsportsmanlike.  Of course you can argue that sportsmanship wasn't part of real life either but this isn't real life, it's a game.

I generally fly alone.  I've had nice 1 on 1/1 on 2's turn into 1 on 10's and even 1 on 20's.  Does it really take that many little hoardlets to kill me?  I'm guessing it wasn't even that much fun for 19 of them, especially since there were no other cons around.

Yes that was the Topic of my original post. Yes there are instances where flying alone works and most of the time I do fly alone. And yes I do Laugh when I see 20 people chasing one enemy. And no i don't think it's much fun for 19 other guys to drop on my target. But again if you fly into a situation where the odds are 20/1 you can expect to have all 20 cons after you and rightly so. A good tactic is to wait until two or three people are taking off for the same base and jump in with them. Try to organize some kind of coherent strategy, and all land with 2-3 kills. It is not a good tactic to fly solo into an enemy base with 20 enemies all at higher alt and then whine about it when you get chased by those 20 cons.

Lets say for argument's sake that you go to an enemy base that has 20 enemies flying over it. And lets say that only 2 drop down after you. You polish both of those enemies off. Should those other 18 just stay at alt or should a few more drop down and finish you off? The answer we all want is no. They should "respect" your gutsy flying against overwhelming odds and getting two kills and let you egress home to land your two kills and then <S> you on 200. But the logical answer is to drop down on you en-mass and finish you off before you do anymore damage. I am sorry that the game is sometimes not fair in that respect but that is the way of the world.

Yep.

And you know, it's not only unsporting to your foe, but to your friends as well.  THEY'VE been doing all the work, THEY'VE been bleeding the guy of all his E, THEY'RE wondering who this fella is that can last so long against them, THEY'RE the ones that deserve this kill, and you just come in late to the party and take the scalp and credit?

Poor form all around to be the 4th in.  The person who does it on purpose is selfish, end of story.  If you've been playing less than two months, you have an excuse.  Otherwise...

Completely agreed. If they ask for help it is another story but before you engage with an enemy that is obviously engaged with a friendly that is winning, it is polite to ask if they need some help. Or at the least watch his six to make sure the enemies' friends don't jump into the fight.


And for clarification's sake, When I said "To take it to the Dueling Arena", I was not trying to be a butt about that but looking back I probably could have found a better way to put that. What was meant was, if you want a strictly fair fight, where you know you are not going to get ganged, or you can use all the fancy maneuvering you want to your hearts content, that is the place for it. In the MA, my job and my fun come from getting down the enemy that has engaged me or that I have engaged in anyway that I can. If you can out-fly and out-maneuver me every time, that's not much incentive for me to fight a 1v1 fair fight, now is it? Yes I learn alot and most times when I get shot down I will private msg the person and ask what could I have done better. Usually the answer I get is, "Not get shot-down." However funny this answer maybe it does not hold to the people's contention that "we all" want the best dogfights that we can get. Otherwise we would all be working together to improve the other persons skill.

[Oldman731]

Seems to me that if the entire purpose was to shoot down the enemy, then perhaps the concept of capturing bases and strats should be removed from the game. While we are at it we should remove field ack, ord, bombers, missions, etc...because if it is all about air to air combat, what do we need the rest of it for? Seems like a useless distraction to me.

Me, too!  Some great ideas here!

- oldman

[SkyRock]

Me, too!  Some great ideas here!

- oldman

[Boxboy]

seems to me if I remember correctly Mcquire was killed because he violated his own rules while trying to beat Dick Bong in the Ace of ace's race going on at the time?

This is not ment as disrespect to the hero but just a fact of the war.

[Guppy35]

Also Guppy, gaining the "respect" of people in the game is no longer about how much you help when your country calls for it. It isn't about coming up with strategies that will help your country win. Now all it is about is your score, and how many kills you land. And that my friend is sad. If a newbie comes in and doesn't have the 4-5 hours daily to devote to this game to get "good," no matter how hard that person tries, he doesn't gain the "respect" for trying, or attempting to learn. Yes I admit I am hard on the Newbies that come in asking how to fly or how to land or shoot or whatever inane question they come up with that could have easily been read on the website. But kids like Lt. Manny or some of those with zip-code names, who actually try to learn the more advanced things, aren't given any respect simply because their voice is high-pitched, no matter how hard they try. And with that attitude, alot of the "squeekers" get fed up with the constant disparagement and belittlement and then hit back by griefing the older sticks. Can you really blame them? If you want the community to come together, lead by example. Let the "older sticks" give a little respect out from the get-go instead of sitting in their ivory towers judging all the little peons like myself who aren't quite as well practiced.  The "Vets" are the ones who keep this communities' core operating, but please remember that we were all newbs at one time.
“This is the final test of a gentleman: his respect for those who can be of no possible service to him” -William Lyon Phelps 
I think some of the "Vets", and not all and not even most, but some would do well to remember this.

I would like to think that I lead by example, in how I present myself in the game, and on the boards.  Folks know what my attitude is.  They know I'll help if I can.  There are many many vets with the same attitude.  That's not the issue.  It isn't the vets promoting the horde mentality outside of a few.

When I don't join the vulch pattern, or lug bombs to kill fighter hangers.  When I don't jump into someone elses fight unless they ask for help.  When I up from a capped base, or wade into a crowde from below I'd like to think my message is clear.  This is a game, where I can risk dying in a fight becasue the only risk I can take is the fight.    I don't PM people if they kill me, other then to say nice fight on occasion.  I don't use 200 that way either.  If I get shot down, and it happens often, I just get my new 38G and go again.

Again there are lots of guys out there, who are vets, that approach the game that way.  I've got a squad full of them, there are other squads with the same approach.  It's not like it's frowned upon to get into a fight.

[mensa180]

I would like to think that I lead by example, in how I present myself in the game, and on the boards.  Folks know what my attitude is.  They know I'll help if I can.  There are many many vets with the same attitude.  That's not the issue.  It isn't the vets promoting the horde mentality outside of a few.

When I don't join the vulch pattern, or lug bombs to kill fighter hangers.  When I don't jump into someone elses fight unless they ask for help.  When I up from a capped base, or wade into a crowde from below I'd like to think my message is clear.  This is a game, where I can risk dying in a fight becasue the only risk I can take is the fight.    I don't PM people if they kill me, other then to say nice fight on occasion.  I don't use 200 that way either.  If I get shot down, and it happens often, I just get my new 38G and go again.

Again there are lots of guys out there, who are vets, that approach the game that way.  I've got a squad full of them, there are other squads with the same approach.  It's not like it's frowned upon to get into a fight.

Good post, but I hear the term "vet" being thrown around alot in everyone's writing, but what constitutes as a vet exactly?  X amount of days spent on this game?  Here from the beginning?

[Guppy35]

Good post, but I hear the term "vet" being thrown around alot in everyone's writing, but what constitutes as a vet exactly?  X amount of days spent on this game?  Here from the beginning?

Long enough to have a clue

Yeah you

[GrimWulf]

Guppy please don't misunderstand I was not singling you out or even applying that to you. Have flown with you and your squad before and have nothing but respect for you. My comments were more of generalization, was just addressing the comments to you in the context of the discussion. No disrespect intended. 

[Stoney]

As soon as this becomes a 1 life and you never get to fly again game, you can start using real life as a comparison.  Since we get to choose the engagement, our aircraft, our altitude, and control all the cards, this isn't real life.  

Imagine the screams in here, if when you entered the arena, HTC chose your job, your plane, your environment, your squadron mates etc.

"Thank you for signing up with Aces High.  You have been assigned to fly Val's and are stationed on an island that at this point is far away from any actual combat.  You have little fuel, no spare parts, and when the enemy shows up, he has masssive numbers, altitude, performance and pilot skill.  Thank you for your 14.95 and enjoy your time in the game.  Once you die, you will never be allowed to play again."

This needs a sticky for all the HO/Gang threads from now into eternity...Great stuff Dan!   

[Dadsguns]

Ever hear of the paragraph?  It makes things much easier to read/comprehend.

As to the original post all I saw was someone trying to justify hoard mentality.  We all paly to have fun.  Just how much fun do you think the guy getting ganged is having?  3 on 1 is at least reasonable and gives a better stick a fighting chance.  Anything more than that is simply unsportsmanlike.  Of course you can argue that sportsmanship wasn't part of real life either but this isn't real life, it's a game.

I generally fly alone.  I've had nice 1 on 1/1 on 2's turn into 1 on 10's and even 1 on 20's.  Does it really take that many little hoardlets to kill me?  I'm guessing it wasn't even that much fun for 19 of them, especially since there were no other cons around.

Well said BaldEagl, I agree.

About the "VET" and "RESPECT" comments further up the posts, are you kidding?  Most of the VETS if thats what you want to call them have created this generation of players that they complain about through the years of play and excuses in tactics they use. 

You WILL NOT find these "VETS" alone very often or AT ALL, but if and when you do, they will usually turn tail and call out the cavalry to shoot you down instead of fight, yet brag about how they are so good and everyone else is somehow inferior to them.  So what is there to respect about that kind of play? Nothing.  If thats how the VETS want to play the GAME, fine.  But dont expect anyone to RESPECT you.

Respect is used so loosley in this game, I dont care if someone has played this "GAME" for 1 yr, 5 yr, 10+ yrs... RESPECT is not a givin due to time in game. Its actually more deeper than that and would deal with how you "PLAY", how you treat others, how you respond to BBS comments, etc. etc.

A couple of days ago, I had a wonderful fight between myself and two others... a classic 2vs1.  I shot them both down without anyone resorting to hoing and was actually a good fight.  Did I expect a <S> from these two guys, nope. 

They were probably more pissed at me since they had all these kills from picking some noob umteen times and were running to land (yes they did have ammo), They were killed with an advantage in the most honorable way and by a better stick. That my friend will get you respect.   

[Hap]

Most, but not all, of my whines are from the perspective of the side doing the ganging.  It's a terrible waste of resources.  No more than 2 friendlies should be required to down one enemy.  If you follow that rule you and the friendlies around you can kill far more efficiently than a country that's full of gangtards.

I agree with you Anaxogoras.  That being said, AH, since 2002 when I began, differed and is gamey in respect to the multiple lives pilots have.  As it should, since it is a game.  

One of the aspects of the game that has been lost is "efficiency."  There's nothing to win anymore.  A game with no winning is like, like, well, I don't know what it is like.  Since that's the case, there's really no call for efficient use of resources.

When I returned to flying a few weeks ago, I worked on my k/d ratio under and got it to 1.3 to 1.7.  No stimulation.  Talk about the lone wolf effort.  Granted those #'s are low too.  Was no "wow this is fun lets see if we can get it done."  No "we" to it.  

Base captures still happen of course.  But there's no sustained drive by any side to win the war.  Not their fault either.  The dynamics, that is the rules, may not prohibit it, but they sure work against it.

The best part of the game is the fellowship.  Finding guys and hooking up and having fun.  But there's this inescapable something that nags at me, "now, why are your doing this?  What's the object of this game?"

I guess the answer "to have fun" is still present.  But in all contests "fun" doesn't cover adequately the experience of the endeavor.  Think football.  There was lots about practice and games that was not fun.  It was hard work.  But the desire to have your side win made it all seem worthwhile.  That part has been lost.

I'm assuming that since the changes have become permanent, they have been a very good business decision by HTC.  But the field on online WW2 gaming is still in its infancy.  Imagine what my be available in 15 years.  We probably would not believe it if we were told today about it.

The only real weakness in HTC's product is it does not provide the essential outcome that all games provide, winners and losers.  Might it always be profitable as a business despite that.  Yes.  

I would not be surprised that the next generation of WW2 online flight sim game designers are already dialed into AH and looking to see what HTC does right and what they do wrong.  Neither would I be surprised that sometime in the next 5 years or so, we'll see a company host a game that has all the pluses that AH provides along with the conspicuously absent winners and losers.

This latest generation of gameplay and pilots shows that anyone can excel at AH.  Time and attention is what it takes.  The first thing that got me hooked was what strikes everyone in the face when they play: wow.  This is cool flying about shooting at folks.  Then, what really sunk the hook in deeply was the fact that folks from all over the world could work together for the common goal of winning the war.  That battle has been fought and lost.  It's not the game we have today and what we do have must please the majority of players because my guess is business is booming.  Lots of updates, improvements, cool stuff generally.

Still, there's an opening for a WW2 flying game that has all that HTC provides plus those parts it has left behind.