I know this is gonna go badly

[A8TOOL]

That's a business woman.

This is a Ho

   

[Sloehand]

Most of us are here to play cartoon fighter pilot, to try and recreate in some small way the daydreams we had as kids of swirling dogfights in the air while staring at a small armada of model aircraft hanging from the ceiling over our beds.  This is a game, what those pilots you were reading about were participating in was a war.  This game has far more in common with those childhood daydreams than what our communal heroes had to deal with.  Here the consequences of deliberately not taking that first and potentially only shot in favor of an engagement of maneuver are not nearly has dire.   

What you say is essentially correct.  But carry it further.  Consider that many of us are trying, in some small way, to fulfill our daydreams a little bit, to experience what those historical pilots actually went through, and try to mimic how they flew and fought, within the limitations of this sim.  

While considered the more 'chivalrous' service in WWI, it was not in WWII.  It was kill or be killed, without warning, by ANY means possible.  And it was never a duel.  I've seen the statement often that 90% of kills occured without the victim even seeing his opponent.  Definitely no honor there, nor any 'dueling' mentality.

But, this is a historical simulation AND a game, so people are free to play it any way they want to.  Some people want to play the game in the MA's just for 1v1 fights, and it's their dime to play that way.  I think they are missing out, but I'm not going to complain about it to them.  

However, what I do take issue with is, these are primarily the people who whine about HO's.  The other side of the coin is, the other guy is playing it like it really was, and it's HIS DIME TOO.  So he plays it with no honor rules, no chivalry, no tipping the hat or handshake before the fight.  It's the way it was, and even though this is just "a game", that's what's fun for them.  Once in awhile these styles of play clash and that's to be expected, but in the aftermath, to even raise the issue of HO or no HO, honor or no honor, ACM or no ACM, is so pointless and worn out, it's beyond stupid.

And crying about the HO is something that contributes to the one thing about this game that I deplore.  That it's given me a whole new perspective on the extreme lack of tolerance and manners of people in our society.  More people than I'd ever have thought if I hadn't experience online gaming.  Yes, I know, some is just smack talk and wonder weenies spouting off, but where there is smoke, there is fire.  Too many people just love to rain on someone else's parade.

[Chalenge]

Come on now its even easier then that and I think you know it! Guys get into the game they see a bunch of red airplanes (or whatever color) they get excited and want to show how good they are and dive right in without thinking about setup or preparation H or anything and first thing you know the whole bunch is hot in pursuit and then here comes one guy straggling home with half his wing gone and no rudder just barely flying and he gets HOed by a desperate noob.

[Helm]

This is not WWII, this is a simulator game.  Nobody here for simulating air combat really cares to fly 5-10 minutes to find an enemy to fight, only to have the first plane they see try to joust with them at the first merge. 

It takes no skill at all to fly directly at an opposing planes nose with the trigger held squeezing the trigger.  If the message you want to send to other players is "I have no skills for air combat" by all means proceed with that tactic, but don't compain about getting grief afterwards.

If both planes cannot get guns it is not a HO.  Examples:  I rope someone, and wait for them to stall nose up and shoot them.  I have guns, they don't.  Not a HO.  I'm inside the opponents opposing turn circle and rake them as their flight path crosses under my belly.  I could get guns, they could not.  Not a ho.

First off no way is some noob gonna kill a pilot of your skill w/ a HO

Second what you are asking from your fellow players is some kind of Dueling arena rules ...thats not happening in the MA

thirdly In Air Warrior you could not get HO hits ....I allways felt this was lame as hell ....basically all anybody had to do was turn into you and they were safe ...forever!! ....It sucked... trust me

fourth you describe front 1/4 shots which many NEW pilots would classify as a HO ....they don't know the difference ...so in a way you reinforce their behavior by teaching them to do it ....if you gonna be Mr. Chivalry then drop the front 1/4 shots as well

Since you point out that this is not WW2 but a simulation ...whats the big deal if some noob kills you with a HO? ....you wasted 10min??? ....BIG DEAL

a 12 on 12 guns solution exists in the Real world .....AND in ACES high


Like I said:  ...get over it


Helm ...out

[Anodizer]

For the sake of an understanding to all of us not in the know,
"What is the technical definition of a H.O. and at what time in an engagement does it occur?"
i have been accused of hoing when i fire from any forward position of the enemy plane, including from the bottom up the top down steep angles turning in ect.
i have been told that a H.O. can only occur on the initial merge and that after that all is fair when turn fighting, but then Ive been told that its a H.O. no matter when its occurs.
It seems to me that those who complain about the H.O. the most tend to be the ones who change the rules to suit their actions at any given moment. one particular individual got mad at me and accused me be a H.O. (took no offense as i will H.O. if you fly at me firing your guns) when in this particular engagement i fired upon him from a climb and strafed him down the length of the bottom of his plane. then later in the night in another entanglement with this same individual we merged and began a twisting downward spiral he fired upon me on three separate head in passes, to his demise i noticed the ground coming before he did, but when i called him out on his H.O. shots he stated its only a H.O. on the merge.
same individual, next evening, 6 turns into an engagement i put a load of 20mm into his nose and canopy, "YOU F&*&ING HOTARD" is private typed to me.
Will one of you fine marauders of the cartoon air please be gracious enough to lay out what the definition of a H.O. is and what point in a fight it is applicable for those of us not in the know?


(Oh, and just as a p.s., since Ariel combat first began in WWI and right up until the present day, standard military tactics and procedure dictates that when being attacked you should first turn into your enemy, by doing so you shorten the time and firing opportunity your opponent may have, as well as possibly opening an opportunity for you to fire upon him in the merge. So please this is not a "well in WWII" so and so did this or SO and so did that....ect. this is about in game etiquette only.)
Thanx

FLOTSOM, every encounter with you has resulted in either a HO, HO-RAM, or you running away in an LA7 after missing a HO attempt.  Please don't try to justify yourself by saying you fire from different angles and then get blamed for a HO...  You couldn't make an angle shot with a lead computing gun sight, let alone on your own..    Suicide Dweeb indeed.....

[Dragon]

Try learning how to pull a guys 6 and then shoot him, it's alot more gratifying.

Is that why your boyfriends are never heard from?      

[infowars]

I HO when I have a shot and he doesn't.   I almost never get ho'd anymore after I learned to just move out of the way.  It is pretty simple,  move in any direction and they miss for the most part.

Last night I actually had someone complain to one of my squaddies that I was hoeing...  At first I thought maybe I did something un ethical until I looked around my capped base a there was a 30 v 5.  In that case anything in my sights get fired upon... So I quickly stopped feeling bad.

I grew out of whining a while back,  especially if there is nothing you can do about it.  I though most of us were adults.  Anyway. 

SWneocon

[Murdr]

First off no way is some noob gonna kill a pilot of your skill w/ a HO

Second what you are asking from your fellow players is some kind of Dueling arena rules ...thats not happening in the MA

Not at all.  One of the first examples I'll show in training a newer player is the angles disadvantages of relying on a HO as a primary tactic.  It is not a matter of chivallry.  It is a tactic very easily countered and exploited (as you seem to say), and I try to not only make players aware of that fact, but show them how to automatically gain an advantage when the opponent is using it on them.

thirdly In Air Warrior you could not get HO hits ....I allways felt this was lame as hell ....basically all anybody had to do was turn into you and they were safe ...forever!! ....It sucked... trust me
Regardless of how you felt about it, the network technology wasn't there to make collision modeling practical when the game was developed.  The tool they used to keep the game from devolving into planes flying through each other with guns blazing was to have arena settings defining the angle off that qualified as a head on, the percentage of hits to reject for a bomber, and percentage to reject for a fighter.  So by the way, you did have a 15% chance on getting HO hits on a bomber, and a 3% chance on fighers.  For planes with nose mounted guns, there actually was a pretty good chance of hitting HO shots due to the shear number of rounds hitting the target   Bet you didn't know I knew that?  If I knew where I had boxed my AW CM manual I could tell you what the angle off setting was

fourth you describe front 1/4 shots which many NEW pilots would classify as a HO ....they don't know the difference ...so in a way you reinforce their behavior by teaching them to do it ....if you gonna be Mr. Chivalry then drop the front 1/4 shots as well
As I said, it's not a matter of chivalry.  A HO is a valid shot, but it is not always the smartest shot to intentionally seek...Though in some situation it very well be the best choice.  On the other hand, any shot that does not leave the opponent the opportunity to shoot back is better than one that does in my book.

Like I said:  ...get over it
This is the main point that caught my attention in your first post.  Just because your opinion seems to be that there should be no stigma attached to the HO shot does not mean everyone else has to fall in line behind you and shut up.

[FLOTSOM]

FLOTSOM, every encounter with you has resulted in either a HO, HO-RAM, or you running away in an LA7 after missing a HO attempt.  Please don't try to justify yourself by saying you fire from different angles and then get blamed for a HO...  You couldn't make an angle shot with a lead computing gun sight, let alone on your own..    Suicide Dweeb indeed.....

without a doubt there is always a punk in the crowd.
let me explain something to you mouth boy, i started this thread partially because of whinny wimpy little bioatchs like you. you sir are on of those "in the know" wanna be's that i spoke of who changes the definitions of a HO or a pick to suit and justify their actions or to whine and whimper about the actions of others.
this thread was created so that i could find a definning line between what was, in the majority of opinions, a HO and what was acceptable tactics. when i shot your lame ash down the other night i was already engaged with someone else and you, as you had done successfully once just the flight before, dropped in from the stratisphere to pick a plane already engaged in a turn fight with multiple others. you made the mistake of blowing your shot but then trying to come immediately back. i got a shot and you ate a load in the mouth. simple as that. or don't you remember that you also got a message that you collided? that was me crashing into your wingless carcass that you so rudely let fall into my flight path. oh and the third time we engaged.......yep you guessed it, i was engaged in a turn fight with 3 others and here comes the hero to  save the day. yep they really needed your help against little ole me.
lets also not forget the discussion on 200 that night when you went into your rant of whining and moaning like a little girl, only to have your own country men call you a whiner and a bit of a baby (my favorite) but to have your own actions stuffed down your throat by me on 200. amazing the amount of dribble that spooges forth from your flap, your a lame and pathetic individual.
if you didn't realize it from the way this thread was written, and the "thank you" that i posted within for those not turning this thread into an insult contest but instead keeping it to a legitimate discussion on tactics and opinion thereof, then i will tell you clearly so that the shortbusser will get it..............This Conversation is for Adults or those with the INTELECT of an Adult Only Childish People NEED NOT REPLY!!!!!!
  I apologise to the rest of you who have class and intelligence, those that chose to conduct this conversation and the responses they posted as an intelligent and reasonable conversation for adults wanting to share knowledge experience and wisdom with those of us who are in need of an honest opinion. i apologise for getting into the mud with a person who obviously has no respect for others and no class to know when he should just keep his mouth shut.
<SALUTE> to those of you willing to share your knowledge without your judgment
thank you
FLOTSOM

[Murdr]

The other side of the coin is, the other guy is playing it like it really was, and it's HIS DIME TOO.  So he plays it with no honor rules, no chivalry, no tipping the hat or handshake before the fight.  It's the way it was, and even though this is just "a game", that's what's fun for them.

If I may point out, "how it really was" depends on the platform, theater, and enemy platform.  Take Tom McGuire's Combat Tactics in the South West Pacific:

Offered in evidence is the Japanese reaction to the head-on pass. They don't like it and nine out of 10 will break first, even before they are in range. To be sure, the head-on task cannot be recommended when flying a plane that has little armament, no convergence of lines of fire, and light armor, but what about this shout of "Banzai" and the suicide crash? Nothing about it because the Japanese aren’t living up toor dying for their propaganda. Instead they will break from the head-on pass in a vertical bank and try to come around for a tail attack. The P-38 pilot need only to keep on at the same speed or go into a shallow dive to defeat this tactic, for the emeny pilot loses speed in the bank and turn and will wind up too far behind to be a menace. In this case of the exceptional one who does hold to a head-on pass, simply push over. The Japanese pilot will invariably go up. One thing you must not do when committed to a head-on pass: you must not turn until entirely clear.

On one hand you have American fighter pilots encouraged to use the HO because it offers them and advantage, on the other hand it is observed that Japanese pilots will avoid that situation like the plague.  So in this case "how it was" was in fact both ways depending on the survivability of using the tactic.  I don't buy that the HO is employed out of some kind of historical accuracy the majority of the time.  It may be sometimes, but the majority of the time it is out of ignorance of both history and tactics.  However, move to another theater and the tactical recommendations may be completely different.

[Murdr]

I didn't think what I said implied anything about whether or not hits were landed.

No offence intended gavagai.  I actually agree with you to a point.  Probably, to you and I both, it is as plain as day when we try to avoid the HO and the enemy is hell bent, and bending over backwards to make a shot happen at the merge anyways.   We *know* that the enemy had every intention of shooting on the merge no matter what aspect the shot would have been.  It's pretty clear they are a "HOer". 

However (making assumptions on your experience), it's also plain as day when someone acts like they have cart blanche to pre-turn a merge however they wish, and cry HO if they get shot at doing it.  If they do it in such a way that they leave an easily aquired shot, that is their fault, not the shooters.  Those kinds of nuances are where it gets sticky on crying HO because one could have gotten guns, but chose not to.  Because an inexperienced player would not know the difference between the two.

[Soulyss]

But, this is a historical simulation AND a game, so people are free to play it any way they want to.  Some people want to play the game in the MA's just for 1v1 fights, and it's their dime to play that way.  I think they are missing out, but I'm not going to complain about it to them.  

However, what I do take issue with is, these are primarily the people who whine about HO's.  The other side of the coin is, the other guy is playing it like it really was, and it's HIS DIME TOO.  So he plays it with no honor rules, no chivalry, no tipping the hat or handshake before the fight.  It's the way it was, and even though this is just "a game", that's what's fun for them.  Once in awhile these styles of play clash and that's to be expected, but in the aftermath, to even raise the issue of HO or no HO, honor or no honor, ACM or no ACM, is so pointless and worn out, it's beyond stupid.

And crying about the HO is something that contributes to the one thing about this game that I deplore.  That it's given me a whole new perspective on the extreme lack of tolerance and manners of people in our society.  More people than I'd ever have thought if I hadn't experience online gaming.  Yes, I know, some is just smack talk and wonder weenies spouting off, but where there is smoke, there is fire.  Too many people just love to rain on someone else's parade.

While I occasionally get frustrated a the sheer number of people that I see that attempt the guns blazing nose to nose initial merge, on some level I can understand it, occasionally I'll mention it on squad vox and on bad nights where I'm having a rough go of it it does annoy me, when I'm shot down on those nights the anger can start to build and in all honesty it's usually partially pointed inwards because I know I fell for a newbie move.

I find the most enjoyment in the game in the move, counter move of aerial cartoon combat, not necessarily 1v1's as I consider myself a pretty poor duelist but in the larger context of a multiple plane engagement, furball, etc.  There can be maneuvering in these situations I don't feel that I HO very often (although will on occasion, depending on the circumstances) and I have some small degree of success in these furballs. What frustrates me on a more intellectual level about the HO artist is that there is a lot this game has to offer if you take time to learn it and those that zoom around at 400mph guns blazing at everything that crosses in front of them are missing out on it.  To me, it's not some idea of honor or anything of that nature it's a game play issue, to me game play would be better if people tried to work the fights a little deeper than what you see most the time in the MA is seems. 

[Helm]

What you say is essentially correct.  But carry it further.  Consider that many of us are trying, in some small way, to fulfill our daydreams a little bit, to experience what those historical pilots actually went through, and try to mimic how they flew and fought, within the limitations of this sim.  

While considered the more 'chivalrous' service in WWI, it was not in WWII.  It was kill or be killed, without warning, by ANY means possible.  And it was never a duel.  I've seen the statement often that 90% of kills occured without the victim even seeing his opponent.  Definitely no honor there, nor any 'dueling' mentality.

But, this is a historical simulation AND a game, so people are free to play it any way they want to.  Some people want to play the game in the MA's just for 1v1 fights, and it's their dime to play that way.  I think they are missing out, but I'm not going to complain about it to them.  

However, what I do take issue with is, these are primarily the people who whine about HO's.  The other side of the coin is, the other guy is playing it like it really was, and it's HIS DIME TOO.  So he plays it with no honor rules, no chivalry, no tipping the hat or handshake before the fight.  It's the way it was, and even though this is just "a game", that's what's fun for them.  Once in awhile these styles of play clash and that's to be expected, but in the aftermath, to even raise the issue of HO or no HO, honor or no honor, ACM or no ACM, is so pointless and worn out, it's beyond stupid.

And crying about the HO is something that contributes to the one thing about this game that I deplore.  That it's given me a whole new perspective on the extreme lack of tolerance and manners of people in our society.  More people than I'd ever have thought if I hadn't experience online gaming.  Yes, I know, some is just smack talk and wonder weenies spouting off, but where there is smoke, there is fire.  Too many people just love to rain on someone else's parade.

Horray!! Well said!!!


Helm ...out

[dedalos]

A HO is when both planes have a firing solution. If only 1 does its a deflection shot.
It really is that simple. 

I use a simple rule in game, avoid all HO attempts from others. After the same plane has tried twice to HO me,
the third time he gets a face full. Kinda like the 3 strikes your out rule.

Personally, if your trying to HO me, your just givin me the inside turn on the next pass. So HO away, it'll just get you killed. Even if you win the HO, chances are your gonna take damage too. So it's a low percentage propostion
at best. Try learning how to pull a guys 6 and then shoot him, it's alot more gratifying.

Not true.  I actually got someone batter than me to try this theory in the DA.  It turns out, a small advantage goes to the guy pursuing the HO shot at the merge.  You guys confuse beating a nube with the hisHO giving you the advantage.

I am available to try any time if you want to see for yourself

[SEraider]

That's a business woman.

This is a Ho

(Image removed from quote.)