Just curious.

[CAP1]

The RAF certainly kicked the Luftwaffer`s arse in 1940

the RAF isn't a single airplane. they also(i think) bareley survived at first.

[Shane]

BTW, "the suits" just hated it whenever anyone called it "the Hitler Channel". So of course, everyone who worked there always did. 

that's what i used to call it too, but now it's more like "The How does this Relate to History Channel."  To be fair, their initial programming was WW2 focused, that changed when some chick took the reins of the parent company.

[Rich46yo]

Why i edited my original post - didn't want to imply that i was calling you an idiot, guess i failed even with the edit. 

I was just saying how stupid the argument is that one single plane won the war.  With the Battle of Britain it is always the Spitfire, over Europe it is always the P-51 or B-17.  All of which simply are not true.

You seem to need the littlest things explained to you. Or else others are named "stupid" or "Idiotic", a theme I see to often in your posts.

Ive been studying WW-2 since I was able to read. But I guess with you I have to be literal.

The RAF saved Britain in the BOB. They didn't defeat Nazi Germany, tho I would give them credit for saving Democracy in a large part. Its true they also took part in the strategic and Tactical air offensive against German forces in Europe starting in 1943. The British had a world class aircraft industry. But the vast majority of this offensive was conducted by the US Army Air Corp.

Of which two main escort and tactical attack Jabos emerged, the P-51 mustang and the P-47. Of the two the P-47 did the Lions share of damage to the German war machine. Both in ATA engagements, bomber escort, and more importantly tactical ground strikes against the German war machine. So in essence I was saying the P-47 won the war more then the P-51 did. Dont forget the Luftwaffe, and its supporting infrastructure, was in large part destroyed while it was still on the ground. And dont forget, design changes in the P-47s gave them the long range escort ability the Mustangs had at about the same time in the air war.

By the last year of the war American fighter aircraft were simply loosed against the Luftwaffe and its infrastructure anywhere it could be found. Aircraft, air fields, training areas. No fighter excelled at all of this as much as the 47. In fact both the highest killing ace, and squadron with the most kills, flew P-47s. P-47s had a kill ratio of almost 8 to 1 in Europe. And then add in all the Holy Hell it raised as a ground attack Jabo.

So I'll say again. No other fighter or Jabo on the Allied side could hold "war winning title" more then the P-47.

Of course the P-47 didn't "win the war all alone", nor did America. I'm not talking to a kindergarten class and didn't feel I needed to point that out earlier and assumed others could figure out I was talking P-47 vs P-51, tho I guess with one or two I needed to.

[dyna76]

 ............Who gives a toejam!!!!!..................jug this..........pony that.....................you want to make it interesting, lets fly F6F's as escorts and up about 25 or 30 of them heavy with fuel and DT off a carrier..............

[BnZ]

The N Jug does, not the D.

Yep. And once again, only for five minutes.

The P-51D can cruise on MIL at 10K is in the neighborhood of 40mph faster than the P-47N on MIL. It is slightly faster at that alt than an N on WEP.  Practically the same speed as a D9 on WEP also. So even if the AHII Pony has a couple of problems, it has a very big historic advantage...it is likely to be fast relative the opposition when the encounter begins.

[dedalos]

I know alot of pilot's go on what they see, view, and heard about on TV about the WW2 planes. But as far as the P51D goes compared to the P47D in sheer terms of versatility wouldn't you think the obvious choice would be the Jug?

A perfect example was this past MoM rook raid. There were over 40 P51D escorts compared to 15-25 P47Ds. Everyone was briefed that we were escorting 2 bomber wings to target and enemy opposition was highly expected at altitudes exceeding 25k. Majority of the P51D pilots from reports from the AAR proved that the P51Ds sustained little over 50% more casualties than the P47s and we had nearly a 50% differential in total airplane force. 

Now i know the P51D is advertised as the "best" American Escort fighter of WW2. I'm not going to denounce the P51 because it's a truly amazing aircraft but at those altitudes the obvious choice was infact the P47. The P47 has 33% more firepower than the P51D, more than enough to do your fair share of shooting at those alts and still have ammo left over. Better high alt performance than a P51D above 25k and is on just about equal terms with the P51D at 15-20k. Better armor that helps out against taking a few shells without having to bail out away from the mission. And Is not Prone To Radiator damage like the P51D.

Just my $0.02 cents. 

I do know that you guys don't have any air to air fighting experience, you don;t have any training on how to fight, no training on how to properly escort bombers, no military trained leaders that know what to do, no obligation to follow orders etc etc etc.  The same also applied to your enemy.  I am talking about real life BTW.

Soooooooo, really, this is a game that does not have real P51s or real Jugs.  You cannot come to any conclusions about real life airplanes based on random events and actions by random people playing a game where going home alive means nothing.

Not saying that 51 is better than the Jug or the other way around.  Just saying, well, WTF??? 

[Anaxogoras]

I hate to break it to y'all who are arguing about which American aircraft did more to defeat Germany: the answer is the Yak and the Il-2.

[Steve]

Yep. And once again, only for five minutes.

The P-51D can cruise on MIL at 10K is in the neighborhood of 40mph faster than the P-47N on MIL. It is slightly faster at that alt than an N on WEP.  Practically the same speed as a D9 on WEP also. So even if the AHII Pony has a couple of problems, it has a very big historic advantage...it is likely to be fast relative the opposition when the encounter begins.

This is misleading since the pony at mil and at WEP are about the same speed at 10k. You could have just as easily said the N and the pony are about as fast with both on wep at 10k.

Are you going to get the N pilots to lay off WEP in the MA, during a fight?

We were talking about acceleration and you said "only for 5 minutes".  This is pointless since acceleration does not take that long.

[BnZ]

This is misleading since the pony at mil and at WEP are about the same speed at 10k. You could have just as easily said the N and the pony are about as fast with both on wep at 10k.

Are you going to get the N pilots to lay off WEP in the MA, during a fight?

We were talking about acceleration and you said "only for 5 minutes".  This is pointless since acceleration does not take that long.

I'm saying that if a Pony that has been cruising meets co-alt Jug who has been cruising awhile, it'll have a large initial speed advantage. WEP on the P-47N is a constant head scratcher...you don't perform all that great at low altitudes compared to most MA stuff without it, and 5 minutes isn't all that long. You can easily expend half of your WEP in one fight, chase, or extension, and it doesn't cool back down into the yellow arc as quickly as a D9.

[Babalonian]

Smacks every last one of ya that claims 51s were the first Allied fighters over Berlin.

Jack Jenkins and the 38Js of the 55th FG claimed that distinction on March 3, 1944.

And I really wish folks would do just a little bit of reading before they throw every last History Channel 'fact' they can find.

I know the P-38 was the first allied fighter over Berlin, however I believe when they got there they weren't as effective as they could of been due to the weathered pilots flying them.  I should look up where I heard/read this, but didn't the fighter pilots who flew over Berlin in P-38Js need to be thawed out of their cockpits afterwards due to the extreme cold tempuratures they endured during the very long flight (an exageration, but they were damn cold and angry about it)?  I know the P51 was loved by the bomber escort pilots because the engine right infront of the pilot provided a heat source to keep the pilots warm(er) the whole flight.

[Guppy35]

I know the P-38 was the first allied fighter over Berlin, however I believe when they got there they weren't as effective as they could of been due to the weathered pilots flying them.  I should look up where I heard/read this, but didn't the fighter pilots who flew over Berlin in P-38Js need to be thawed out of their cockpits afterwards due to the extreme cold tempuratures they endured during the very long flight (an exageration, but they were damn cold and angry about it)?  I know the P51 was loved by the bomber escort pilots because the engine right infront of the pilot provided a heat source to keep the pilots warm(er) the whole flight.

Well lets see.  The Mustangs got there on March 4th the first time.  Don Blakeslee and the 4th took off with 48 Mustangs.  1/2 aborted with engine problems of one kind or another.  Blakeslee's guns froze so he couldn't shoot.  Windscreen's iced over.   They weren't particularly effective either.

It was a tough run no matter what you flew.  All of the birds had problems facing them, that we never face in AH.  When is the last time your motor mount bolts on your 51 failed on the way to a target?  Have your guns frozen over yet?  Have the plugs fouled on your Merlin leaving you with a dead engine over enemy territory?

Again this is where I wish folks would do a little actual research before making broad generalized statements about this kind of stuff in AH.

The 8th bombers could have had escorts going all the way from the time they got there.  But they managed to ship their first three P38 groups to North Africa.  The 54th FS in the Aleutians, far worse weather then the lousy English weather, and colder, proved they could keep their 38Es in the air for 11 hours + and this was in 1942.  And yeah it was cold, but if the job needed to be done....

P47s came to the ETO without any provision for drop tanks, even though planes had been carrying them as routine for a long time prior.  By the time all was said and done, the Jug was lugging three 108 gallon tanks if needed and ranging all over Germany too.

Look into the politics that played into the 38s going to North Africa and the Jugs coming ill equipped.  The bomber guys were convinced they could go it alone and wanted to prove it.  They were proven wrong.  A lot of bomber guys lost their lives to find this out.

I love the Mustang and it's history. I'll stack my 4th FG library up against anyones, and my 51 group history collection too.   But to claim it was the be all end all of fighter planes is just silly.   Keep in mind it was cheaper to produce then the 38 and Jug too I believe.

[Babalonian]

Well lets see.  The Mustangs got there on March 4th the first time.  Don Blakeslee and the 4th took off with 48 Mustangs.  1/2 aborted with engine problems of one kind or another.  Blakeslee's guns froze so he couldn't shoot.  Windscreen's iced over.   They weren't particularly effective either.

It was a tough run no matter what you flew.  All of the birds had problems facing them, that we never face in AH.  When is the last time your motor mount bolts on your 51 failed on the way to a target?  Have your guns frozen over yet?  Have the plugs fouled on your Merlin leaving you with a dead engine over enemy territory?

Again this is where I wish folks would do a little actual research before making broad generalized statements about this kind of stuff in AH.

The 8th bombers could have had escorts going all the way from the time they got there.  But they managed to ship their first three P38 groups to North Africa.  The 54th FS in the Aleutians, far worse weather then the lousy English weather, and colder, proved they could keep their 38Es in the air for 11 hours + and this was in 1942.  And yeah it was cold, but if the job needed to be done....

P47s came to the ETO without any provision for drop tanks, even though planes had been carrying them as routine for a long time prior.  By the time all was said and done, the Jug was lugging three 108 gallon tanks if needed and ranging all over Germany too.

Look into the politics that played into the 38s going to North Africa and the Jugs coming ill equipped.  The bomber guys were convinced they could go it alone and wanted to prove it.  They were proven wrong.  A lot of bomber guys lost their lives to find this out.

I love the Mustang and it's history. I'll stack my 4th FG library up against anyones, and my 51 group history collection too.   But to claim it was the be all end all of fighter planes is just silly.   Keep in mind it was cheaper to produce then the 38 and Jug too I believe.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who thinks the 51 was beter than all planes or even most of that era, I was just under the impression that the 38 drivers were miserable in the cold weather compared to the 51's, which provided a little more compfort.  And I knew the 51s first entered combat with problems, but not on the scale (50%) of what the 4th had on their first flight with the 51s as you described.  Now I'm curious about it too (how many were from problems they never knew about during the plane's development, how many were ground-crew errors, etc.).  A 50% mechanical failure before they even reached combat is something I don't think I've ever heard of for any plane, and honestly there must of been some good reasons for it, otherwise I doubt any pilot would willingly want to fly one into combat after that word got around.

[Ack-Ack]

The Mustang is great is because it was the first fighter that could escort the heavy bombers to target and back. Before that, the enemy fighters could just wait outside of fighter cover range for the buffs to come in.

Both the P-47 and the P-38 were able to escort bombers from England to Germany and back.  The first Allied fighter over Berlin was a P-38.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

i think the 8th air force was a MAJOR contributer to the winning of the war though.

The 8th was also a major contributor to some of the major screw ups of the air war.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

The RAF certainly kicked the Luftwaffer`s arse in 1940

The Luftwaffe is just as much to blame in their failure to win the battle as the RAF are for winning it.  The Luftwaffe's strategic and tactical planning prior to the BoB and during the battle helped create conditions that led to the defeat of the Luftwaffe during the BoB. 


ack-ack