Spitfire wing tips

[Furball]

Oh and Furball, it isnt that I refuse to accept that the ground crews didnt change the tips, it is the fact that they did not do those changes between eqach and every sortie.  Those changes were made... again... when the unit changed roles and not per pilot descretion each and every sortie.

I don't understand why that is such an issue with you?

Do you think that ground crews swapped over the cannon on the IL2 each sortie? Or that B-25 crews swapped from glass noses to solid noses after each landing?  Or jug crews removed the outer set of 50 cals?

There are many options in game which would represent different aircraft which were in service at the time, the choice of wingtips would just be another one of those options.

As for the loadouts, the Spitfire wings on most of them were universal so could fit any ord which any other could.

[Guppy35]

Having two entirely seperate models would be the better way to do what is being suggested, that way if you want the Spit V w/ clipped wings for dive bombing then the ord packages would be avilable for that version and not the Spit V with the tips for the air to air... otherwise we'll have hybrids that were not actually used.  Swapping wing tips in the hanger is not condusive to keeping the models accurate, imo.  No sense in making each Spitfire a hybrid like the Spit16 is... were not most of the Spit16 equiped squadrons assigned an attack role, do we see much of the air to ground Spit16?       

Oh and Furball, it isnt that I refuse to accept that the ground crews didnt change the tips, it is the fact that they did not do those changes between eqach and every sortie.  Those changes were made... again... when the unit changed roles and not per pilot descretion each and every sortie.

Loon, you aren't being accurate however.  I posted photos of Spits in the same squadron with different tips at the same time.  I can certainly post more if need be.  Was it an everyday change?  No.  But it wasn't solely based on a squadron based change.  Stan Turner had wingtips put on his Spit 16 because he preferred it.  It didn't mean that everyone went that way.  The photo of the two Spit 16s in the same squadron markings is a good indicator.  They would have come to the squadron with clipped wings as the 16s came off the production line with clipped wings.  Yet the trailing 16 has full span wings while the leader does not.  That isn't a wing commander's bird flying number 2.

Using the 131 Spit VIIs again. There are photos from the same time frame in July-August 44 showing both extended and normal wingtips on the VIIs with a mix of paint schemes.

You seem determined not to accept the fact that the wing tip change was a two bolt and a metal strip kind of operation and that it could be done quickly.  Personally i don't care if we implement that in AH, but seperate that from the historical part, because you are wrong on the history bit.

Seafire IIs on a British Carrier, some with, some without tips, prior to Avalanche.

[Guppy35]

From Bill Olmsted's book "Blue Skies" about his Spit driving with the RCAF.  The excerpt is when he was flying Spits with 232 squadron in the MTO.  He was a flight commander and the squadron had a mix of Vc and IXs.  He was assigned a Vc.

"Having my own aircraft, my "E" job, radical measures to improve it's performance could be taken.  I never much cared for our machine guns, feeling they were a very ineffective weapon.  Out they came, leaving only the cannons.  I removed all of the armor plating, leaving only the light metal bucket seat to protect my backside and seat.  I took off the rear view mirror.   I junked the IFF box, a thirty pound device located in the tail which emitted a constant special signal that allowed friendly radar to recognize instantly that the machine was friendly.  I removed it since the thought of being mistaken for an enemy was not particularly frightening.  I pulled the exhaust stacks and installed Spit IX exhaust stubs, six per side instead of three to improve the engine's performance.  Finally with the enthusiastic help of my ground crew, i scraped and polished the whole airplane to nearly bare metal.

The first time I test flew my modified aircraft, the damn thing shot upward like and elevator or helicoptor after just reaching flying speed.  It was so light and unbalanced that it took some time to learn to fly and trim the kite properly.  I knew no one else would be interested in flying my E, which had turned into something of a beast.  But it was fast and maneauverable, so much so that I felt it was nearly the equal of the IXs below 10,000 feet.  It was certainly a tricky bastard to fly properly, but I revelled in it's improved performance."


That's one pilot in a squadron taking the time to adjust his bird to his liking.  I've heard similar bits from other Spit pilots myself.  It didn't have to be squadron wide, or mission based to tweak your Spit

[SgtPappy]

Talk about pimp my ride.

[RTHolmes]

hmm you should have kept quiet loon - the case for hangar swappable wingtips seems to be getting stronger...


PS the XVI is a very capable attack aircraft, the only reason it isnt used this way more is because swapping the slipper for some iron gives it dreadful range, hence my request for the 2x250lb option for VIIIs

[Angus]

Sqn ldr Anthony Bartley 111 sqn RAF in the MTO (Tunisia) removed the outboard .303's on his Spit V in order to impove performance. He left 2 guns, since in all that dust and mud, jamming was common. It served him once, when the cannons jammed, where he peppered a Stuka to death with just 2 303's.
The removal took place in the field.
Another one, the New Zealander Mackie "Rosie" (family name escapes me) fixed better stubs on his engine. I memory serves me he once had to ditch and was picked up by friendlies, then already carrying the stubs
There was an issue with spinners as well.

[Kev367th]

Having two entirely seperate models would be the better way to do what is being suggested, that way if you want the Spit V w/ clipped wings for dive bombing then the ord packages would be avilable for that version and not the Spit V with the tips for the air to air... otherwise we'll have hybrids that were not actually used.  Swapping wing tips in the hanger is not condusive to keeping the models accurate, imo.  No sense in making each Spitfire a hybrid like the Spit16 is... were not most of the Spit16 equiped squadrons assigned an attack role, do we see much of the air to ground Spit16?       

Oh and Furball, it isnt that I refuse to accept that the ground crews didnt change the tips, it is the fact that they did not do those changes between eqach and every sortie.  Those changes were made... again... when the unit changed roles and not per pilot descretion each and every sortie.

You seem to be confused -
Wing tip fitted was irrespective of the wing type itself ("a", "b", "c", "d", "e").
Just because some had full span tips didn't mean they couldn't or didn't carry ord, that was a capability of the wing type, not the tip.

XVI - Is not a hybrid, it could and did carry ord, it was a capability of the 'e' wing, not the tip fitted.

No matter what tip is fitted, the wing type remains the same!

So if you could clip a Mk Ia, (never seen it, for an e.g. only) you wouldn't suddenly be able to carry ord, the Spit Ia's type 'a' wing couldn't carry ord, clipped or not.
Conversely fitting full span tips to a IX with 'c' type wing wouldn't stop it carrying ord.


On a lighter note - Think how much fun our old Vc would have been....CLIPPED!!!!

[Kev367th]

Seafire IIs on a British Carrier, some with, some without tips, prior to Avalanche.
(Image removed from quote.)

Dan -
Looks like a mixture of IIc's (maybe just 2) and LIIc's?

Shows by Sept 43 there were very few IIc's left, most having been re-engined with the Merlin 32.

[SmokinLoon]

Regarding the "hybrid' comment, I should have clarified a bit better...

There are many planes in AH2 that are not used as they were in WWII.  The Spit16 w/ clipped wings (the one we have) was used as an attack plane in WWII, yes?  In AH2... just how often do we see it in that role?  Another prime example is the Fw190A-8, in WWII it was used to hunt bombers abd although a few of us actually use it for that... what is the A-8 used for mostly?  Attacking ords, etc at a base.  Thw Fw190F-8 was far more suited to attack ground targets but the ease of use for those dual 30mm vs rockets and ord make the A-8 bomber hunter a prime ground attack plane in AH2.

"Hybrids" as I mentioned are an offshoot of the original mission or role a plane was designed to do (in WWII). Yeah yeah, I know that the MA isnt about recreating WWII but to offer up the Spit16 as a premier dogfighter is kinda like making the AKM a premier sniper rifle... hypocritical to the origins, imo. 

Removing guns is something the ground crews did all the time.  Those guns had parts replaced on them are regular intervals.  Likewise, I'm sure there were mechanics that tweaked engines at the pilots request (or by the pilots themselves), but likewise this wasnt something that was standardized nor probably accepted by high command (or makers of the aircraft, either).  I probably would have removed the outer 2 of teh .30 cals too knowing how piss poor they performed in the air at the speeds being flown.  Why the Brits hung on so long to those .30 cals is a mystery to me.  They should have swapped to the .50 cals much sooner.

 

[Furball]

 

I don't understand how this has to do with why you are against the Spit having optional clipped wings.  It was used as a ground attack aircraft because the Luftwaffe was a no show most of the time where the 2nd TAF squadrons were operating.  It is not, the same as you make out, as having the Stuka dive bomber as the top fighter in Aces High.  I don't know of one mark of Spitfire designed especially for the ground attack role as you make out.  The 16 was the same as the LF.IX - does that make the Spitfire IX a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter?

The Spitfire's clipped wings was a direct response to the FW-190 and done for the air to air role.

The FW-190F-8 does not have 30mm, nor do i regularly see the A-8 being used in the ground attack role.

[Kev367th]

Regarding the "hybrid' comment, I should have clarified a bit better...

There are many planes in AH2 that are not used as they were in WWII.  The Spit16 w/ clipped wings (the one we have) was used as an attack plane in WWII, yes?  In AH2... just how often do we see it in that role?  Another prime example is the Fw190A-8, in WWII it was used to hunt bombers abd although a few of us actually use it for that... what is the A-8 used for mostly?  Attacking ords, etc at a base.  Thw Fw190F-8 was far more suited to attack ground targets but the ease of use for those dual 30mm vs rockets and ord make the A-8 bomber hunter a prime ground attack plane in AH2.

"Hybrids" as I mentioned are an offshoot of the original mission or role a plane was designed to do (in WWII). Yeah yeah, I know that the MA isnt about recreating WWII but to offer up the Spit16 as a premier dogfighter is kinda like making the AKM a premier sniper rifle... hypocritical to the origins, imo. 

Spit XVI an attack plane - More accurately a fighter that could carry ord when required.
The reason for clipping wings was to increase the Spits roll rate for dogfighting.

Spits could carry ord from 1942 onwards with the introduction of the 'c' type wing which had been given hardpoints. I wouldn't say any of them suddenly became attack only aircraft, or predominantly attack aircraft.

[Guppy35]

While researching the Spitfire XII back in the 1980s I got to know a number of former Spit drivers.  The classic Spitfire attack story came from "Jumbo" Birbeck, who after flying XIIs ended up on XVI's towards the end of the war.  He said there were so few targets left, and nothing to shoot at in the air, that they had his squadron dive bombing Sub pens with 16s.  He was shot down while on one of these missions that he described as completely useless and just something that was done to keep the squadron's busy.  He saw little point in bouncing 500 pounders off sub pens.

He was still bitter about it.

As for Spitfires in the attack role over all.  it really got going in the Spring of 44 with 2 TAF.  602 and 453 RAAF were the first to really put it into practice, but all kinds of Spit squadrons were lugging bombs in support of the ground war.  It really was their job for most of 44 and 45.  The Pole's did a lot of ground attack.  All kinds of photos of their birds lugging three bombs.  They did it with full span wing Spit IXs before transitioning to clipped 16s.

Again keep in mind the birds we have in AH

Our Spit IX is an FIX, really a late 42-43 bird prior to them lugging bombs.  The VIII is an LFVIII but they didn't lug bombs on VIIIs much as the Vcs were better known as Bombfires.  The XVI we have is an LF bird and was fitted with the E wing and the three hard points.   Our Spit V is an early Vb that wasn't a bomb carrier.  This was the later Vb and Vcs that went to the MTO.  In terms of what we have, the ord loadouts are correct.

In a perfect world, I suppose we'd get a Spitfire Vc Trop with the advantages and disadvantages it had.  We'd get a 1944 LF IX with a Universal wing and hardpoints so you'd have a small tail, 2 20mm 4 303, 3 hardpoint IX, and maybe we'd get a clipped and cropped Vb optimized for low alt.

But in the end we can do all the 'missions' with the Spits we have, and putting the energy into other birds would make more sense to me, even though I'd love the XII because of all the time I've spent researching it and corresponding with XII pilots.

[SgtPappy]

PS the XVI is a very capable attack aircraft, the only reason it isnt used this way more is because swapping the slipper for some iron gives it dreadful range, hence my request for the 2x250lb option for VIIIs

I would prefer Mk.VIII's with wing hard-points as well... no longer would I need to fly a Mustang or Lightning just for jabo work and have the other Canadians laugh at my apparent lack of Canuck spirit.

there are photos of RAAF birds with 250 lb racks, though the thing is, I think those were added on. I don't know if the Mk.VIII was factory-built with them. If we ever see the perk ordnance system in place, perhaps they will be available.

[Stoney]

Why would you perk a Spit VIII with an ordnance capability?

Dan, what's so special about the Spit VII compared to what we have in game?

[Bronk]

Why would you perk a Spit VIII with an ordnance capability?

Dan, what's so special about the Spit VII compared to what we have in game?

VII or XII?