Gameplay.

[DeeZCamp]

Get rid of it.. focus only on realism... why not make aces the most realistic sim..  if those want evening out of weapons.. or tradeoff for gameplay, nintendo is always an option. Make everything as real as possible, full flight/cockpit managment/weapons/flight physics lighting/ EVERYHTING.. graphics is a plus but not necessary for hi fedelity simulation. Make it Realistic so this stops the Quake aces high arena that it is so sadly becoming.    

[hazed-]

deez i hope you dont mean me in the 'evening out of weapons'   I know i asked for adjustment in one post but i certainly want the characteristics and true behaviour of mg151s modeled i just would like to see the hits with the mineshells causing similar damage to an hispano round.
As the hispano rounds have a higher ROF they should be able to land more rounds in the same time so they will still be better than mg151s and the 151s poor trajectory should be as it is now.I dont want that changed.
1 shell from each gun should have a similar effect though.I think HTC should give us the numbers to stop all this questioning.It would settle sooooo many arguements.
As for the FULL blown realism of engine management with real start sequence,propeller pitch control, etc i think that would be too much.but overheating that causes damage is ok i think, most flight sims ive played model this.
I would love to see bullet hits destroying instruments though!   and bullet holes in the canopy.

heres an example of a real spit startup sequence....

set fuel cock levers to on (2 of them)
throttle 1/2 inch open (20%)
airscrew pitch control fully forward...
prime the engine, number of strokes required being as follows:
air temp C /strokes...+20/3 +10/4 0/6 -10/8 -20/15
switch on ignition
press the starter push button(should be held on until engine firing evenly)
While warming exercise the airscrew pitch control a few times
make usual checks of tempretures,pressures and controls
after a few minutes move the airscrew pitch fully forwards
open the throttle to give maximum boost for cruising and check each magneto in turn
drop in r.p.m. should not exceed 150
open throttle fully momentarily and check static r.p.m. boost and oil pressure
Engine warming must not be prolonged because  the radiator temp must not exceed 100 C .

you want to do all that every flight??? or while someone is shooting up the airfield??
i sure as hell dont hehe  

I think if i remember right the 109 is even worse.

[DeeZCamp]

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME! haha..    That as well as the bad guys IN-Flight engine managment would make everyone really cautious and always set with a "i want to live mindset" rather than "hey i can push esc and click "N for the rwy"  I see so many get killed and then immidiatly take off just to go ho someone then die, (multiply this process untill either the attacking cons run out of bullets or your base gets bombed by the onslaught. Now just think about it though.. i know it may seem allitle tedious at first but it would increase realism, and i belive it would take out alot of this Quake style gameplay that is so prevelent here.  Thanx for replying with the spit info   thats awesome stuff    
PS we gotta do some more 51 Vs 109 Stuff again    a Big SALUTE TO YOU !  

[whels]

Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
THAT WOULD BE AWESOME! haha..      That as well as the bad guys IN-Flight engine managment would make everyone really cautious and always set with a "i want to live mindset" rather than "hey i can push esc and click "N for the rwy"  I see so many get killed and then immidiatly take off just to go ho someone then die, (multiply this process untill either the attacking cons run out of bullets or your base gets bombed by the onslaught. Now just think about it though.. i know it may seem allitle tedious at first but it would increase realism, and i belive it would take out alot of this Quake style gameplay that is so prevelent here.  Thanx for replying with the spit info   thats awesome stuff      
PS we gotta do some more 51 Vs 109 Stuff again      a Big SALUTE TO YOU !  

Im here to play a fighter sim , not a damn flight sim, if u want engine management and such go play MS flight sim or some other junk like that, or go fly a real  plane.
i dont want to spen 15 mins each flight just preflighting the damn plane. much less know ever procedure for ever plane AH has or will have  in future. so take a long walk off a short pier Deez.

whels

[Fatty]

Yeah, let's model in the 6-12 hour flight times too, and the fact you may not see a single person the entire flight.

Man wouldn't that be a blast.

[DeeZCamp]

Man.. its so sad to see such attitudes, I mean I guess you guys are not up for the challenge or realism.

   Oh, well hey how about we have all the planes fly like n1ks and with auto aiming, hey we could even have a single key to start the engine (oh yeah thats already here)..    while we're at it lets have auto takeoff (oh yeah thats here too) i guess its not that realistic after all?

I mean it would really suck to hafve to actually fly the plane as it takes in RL, i guess it would be to much for "some" to handle.  

Well lets keep on Quakeing then      

[Maverick]

Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
Man.. its so sad to see such attitudes, I mean I guess you guys are not up for the challenge or realism.

   Oh, well hey how about we have all the planes fly like n1ks and with auto aiming, hey we could even have a single key to start the engine (oh yeah thats already here)..      while we're at it lets have auto takeoff (oh yeah thats here too) i guess its not that realistic after all?

I mean it would really suck to hafve to actually fly the plane as it takes in RL, i guess it would be to much for "some" to handle.    

Well lets keep on Quakeing then            

I own and fly a plane in RL. Frankly I find it to be fun. Not the preflighting or maintenence necessarily but the flying part and there really isn't that much to it.

Here I play a "game based on WW2 aircombat". (Quotes from HT.) I don't really care for the all consuming realism addicts, particularly those who don't fly for real and only read about it. Their version of nirvana would appeal to very very few. They really need to go out and make their OWN game and see how far the profit margin goes. I doubt it would be up very long.

Deez, you seem to like flying quite a bit. Get out and do some for real. You'll see there ain't no sim out there really modelling the real thing that well. It is beyond the normal home PC and software based units we have now. Someday it might get that way, but for now the best are in the real time training sims the airlines and military use. Having had several hours in the real F16 simulators used by the AirForce, they leave something to be desired as well. The "full" motion shuttle simulator that NASA has in Houston is neat but even it lacks a full "immersive feel" to it. It's not bad at all but you really don't get into it and feel like it's reality on the screens in front of the windows.

HTC has a pretty damn good product that can be played by a wide range of machines and on a modem for "real time" play around the world. Is it perfect? Nope but then I'm here to play a game not harp on perfection, whatever that might be.

As a buddy of mine says, wing up, get kills, be happy.   If that isn't available for ya here, look elswhere. It might be out there somewhere. After all you were looking for a flight game when ya found AH. Maybe you will be rewarded in another area.

Mav

[DeeZCamp]

Hey just to enlighten you a bit   , I have flown Quite a bit in REAL Aircraft, Naval trainers(full acro setup), and various forms of C152's, As well as the Mulitimillion$ B-2 Trainer that our pilots learn to fly before we let them go up in the real deal.  

  As far as you thinking that no sim around today models flight physics accurrately, I highly suggest you learn What X-plane is. To sum it up breifly would be to state that it is the eqivalent of those Million dollar Flight simulators. The funny thing is that it is less hardware intesive compared to Aces High, has better graphics, and allows the user to create aircraft through a cad/cam interface for its Blade element theory real-time flight calculation.

The only thing it doesnt have is full engine starting procedures, or the ability to shoot anything. It is an IFR/VFR type trainer.

Id say the only thing aces has over it is the shooting part as well as the view system, other wise X-plane.. is the better "everything"

[hazed-]

mav i know we've had a differing opinion on the level of realistic features to be inplemented but i think even you would have to admit if we could make this game a little more like a military simulator whilst still allowing the casual flyer the ability to be able to just up and fight it would truelly be a great experience.
Tonight watching discovery channel there was a peice on the cobra military sims, they didnt 'look' that great for trees etc but they were proper simulators.so you got armies with trucks and tanks with realistic capabilities, it helps the pilot learn to adjust to a changing battlefeild but it doesnt need to 'look' pretty.
we want pretty and fun im sure but id also like a little more to think about.I dont want to be worrying about engine management either! But what id like to see is a war going on.
after seeing the sim on discovery i noticed one thing which made it look likegreat fun and that was when they straffed a base of trucks and planes!
Could this be the answer for fuel respawning etc?
think of this...

theres always a minimum of 25% at all fields and each field receives truck convoys from a central factory these convoys keep everything topped up so the more get through the greater the supplies.As supplies exceed 100% it starts to stockpile maybe(giving us extra targets at the field) or perhaps its convoys stop and all other convoys receive a bonus.We could even get a ju52 and make it and the C47 capable of choosing cargos and we could bolster bases in trouble with airdrops!!.a few trains that have a big capacity in arms and fuel that we would be foolish to leave undefended but it wouldnt kill a base if it doesnt get through.Bases could still spawn slowly in the normal fashion but for the strategically minded flyers we can 'make the difference' with jabos on trains and large supply dumps.It would be MORE for all of us.
this way attackers would have to keep the convoys back too to keep a field down.what these convoys would be like i dont know.simple undefended eye candy for the fun or defended platforms for AA guns we could use it doesnt matter to me.
When i ask for AH to get more complicated I dont want anal toejame like having to press a button for oxygen breatheing or a start up like i described earlier!    
But wouldnt it be cool straffing convoys that are automated? or even spread a selection of fighters over an airfield that downed pilots can run to to take off in even when a hanger is down? it would be a laugh running accross the base jumping into 'the last hope planes that immediately pop up when all hangers are down.
It would give frustrated defenders a terrifying gamble, it would give the attackers something to shoot at and see explode!     after all isnt that what we all want?
I just want to see more going on and have more choices in my targets and style of mission, but keep the ability to grab a plane and just roll.
what do you think Mav? everyone?

p.s. if we had some convoys rolling over bridges we have another fantasic target for the strat guys and a strange inanimate object for the loons among us to fly under  
Destroying it will hinder respawn but even if we stop the factories altogether the bases would still recover as they do now only maybe minutes longer?
the more i think about it the better it sounds to me  

infact tell me you'll put stuff like this in HTC and i'll resubscribe there and then  

[ 06-10-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[SirLoin]

I'm gonna keep this one short..Gameplay=My hard earned $30p/m...Each patch brings better gameplay to this,perhaps not quickly enough though..<S!>

[SirLoin]

I'm gonna keep this one short..Gameplay=My hard earned $30p/m...Each patch brings better gameplay to this,perhaps not quickly enough though..<S!>

[Seeker]

I can understand the desire for realism, but I fail to see how franticaly clicking mouse buttons or pounding the keyboard simulates it. So much of this type of immersion is "out side the monitor"; it's tactile, reaching down for the flaps lever, or it's positional, hunting for the prop pitch controls.....

The realism I'm after is a true understanding of 3D geometry, velocity vectors coupled with the energy egg, and FM's accurate enough to take advantage of the prior factors. If _that's_ right, the rest is eye candy, and if it's wrong, then you're playing Fighter Ace anyway......

Deezcamp, I've seen you online extolling the virtues of X-plane. I've never tried it my self, but if that's your opinion, what draws you back to AH? What's X-plane missing?

[Sancho]

x-plane doesn't have guns and a hundred other real life pilots flying around on your screen.   x-plane seems like a nice general aviation sim.  I'm not qualified to compare flight models of the two sims, but I'd have to say that Aces High's graphics are better than X-plane.

[Mark Luper]

Deez does have a point about X-plane being a good simulator. It really has some cool features. I find it lacking in a couple of areas, but those are my opinion. I own X-plane as well as MSFlightsim 2000 Pro. I generaly prefer MSFS because of the visuals and, as Deez stated, the lack of engine start up procedures in X-plane.

Some of the really neat features about X-Plane I really do like are the manner in which they handle aircraft on the water, in the amphibs of course. You can also vary the water state, such as height of waves and so forth. The other thing is that you can fly in space with it. Also it has some very convincing flames from rockets and after burners and the contrails it produces at high altitude are really cool too. It has a nice low level altitude chart for plotting courses while flying. It also has some really cool thunderstorms  .

My gripes about it are mainly visual. It does have a cool plane building program that comes with it but you can't produce rounded wing tips and realistic tail sections with it. Some aircraft look pretty realistic because they have fairly squared off flying surfaces in real life, but others leave me a bit cold.

MS Flightsim is great on the visual aspects of it and some of the planes you can download have very good flight models that have been researched well. Others just plain suck   . It has some very realistic engine start up sequences in the planes that have been modeled with it and flight can be a great experience depending on the quality of the fm modeled and how you have the realism settings set.

Though MS flightsim doesn't come with a aircraft builder a very good one can be downloaded from Abacus that costs $39.

I fly both regularly as a means of getting away from AH for a bit. It is nice to fly around or to someplace without beeing shot down  . The distances are real and the navigation is pretty realistic too. You can fly both using sectional charts purchased at your local FBO.

I would enjoy a little more in the engine management side of AH too. I don't think I would want ultra realism necesarily, but more than we have, especially in the bombers. Would give you something to fiddle with on those long climbouts  .

As a matter of interest, you can download X-Plane at http://x-plane.com  for free and try it. You only get 5 min flying time with a joystick each time you start it, but you can fly it with a mouse and keyboard when that time runs out. It is different and it is an interesting change of pace.

[Maverick]

Hazed,

You and I are not that far apart here. Your idea about the strat additions and AI convoys sound like a neat feature. I don't have any objection to that kind of stuff.

My objection with the "realism" crowd is their selectivity of realism. They call for the minutia of flying without adding anything of real substance to the game.

If you want a truly realistic sim you have to give up many items that make the game viable in a mass market arena.

1. You log on for the first time and are assigned a country at random to be "born" in.

2. You start MANDATORY flight training and do not progress until you "graduate".

3. You go to advanced training and demonstrate your ability to handle an aircraft. Based on your skills after a predetermined time you are sent to a particular squadron that flies a specific plane. You may not get your prefered plane type such as a fighter.

4. You go to combat traiing at the front with your squad and try to develop SA that will allow you to survive which is very important for the next point.

5. You fly and live to fly again flying the missions you are ASSIGNED, not necessarily what you want to do.

6. If you die, you are done and at the very least (in a concession to GAME PLAY) have to be "reborn" and start all over again.

That takes in the minutia of the aircraft management, simulates real combat environments, ensures total immersion in the product. No half measures, just a realistic simulation of the real thing.

I won't get into the "flight modeling" thing here. It would drag this on way too much.

Now if this is what the "realist advocate" has in mind, then I agree it would be a SIM. If not, then all it is is a game based on the "rules" they want to satisfy themselves.
 


Mav