Initiating scissors

[PFactorDave]

I've been finding, as of late, that using a scissors type movement to turn the tables on an opponent is a good way to get out of a potentially bad situation.  My problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get the scissors started.

Can any of you more experienced sticks talk about the various different types of scissors (rolling, flat, vertical, etc) and what a pilot wishing to initiate a scissors should be watching for (as far as what his opponent is doing) and what he should do to get the scissors started...

Thanks in advance.

[humble]

Scissors are obviously a defensive move so there are a lot of variables. A few things come into play.

1) Closure rate

The higher the closure rate the easier it is to force a scissor up to a point

2) Orientation of bogeys lift vector prior to scissor

A lot of the scissors effectiveness is based on getting "out of sync". By creating a scenario where the other guy pulls lead prior the actual scissor you can get him leaning one way when your intent is to go the other way. This leads naturally into the how do I start question.

Normally given time I'll porpoise up just a bit in the 2.0 range...just enough so the con sees I know he's there. Then at about 1.4 or so I'll go into a gentle descending turn with cut throttle. Why these distances....I want him close and I want a quick read and react.

I want the con to think...he see's me, he realizes he cant go up....here's his move....shot, Shot, SHOT

If the con is "flying the gun sight" I'm 75%+ of the way to a guns solution of my own. So your initial set up move has to be close enough and gentle enough to create this effect. As soon as he "pulls lead I drop the nose a bit more and then start the scissor back the other way. The initial reverse should be flat or very slightly nose down IMO. The goal here is present minimal threat and keep him in the gun sight. A good stick will often simply deny the scissor and refuse the bait. The "better" the shot picture the more fish you get. The flat aspect of the scissor is really all about creating closure in E state...if he does try and get slow to "win" the flat scissor you've got him. The goal isn't really to get slower...its to get him out of sync but maintain his aggressiveness. So after 1 or 2 reverses you switch from a flat scissor (purely defensive) to a rolling scissor which is really offensive. If you do it right the rolling aspect hides the angles enough so the bogey doesnt realize he's lost till you pop out 400 on his 6. The key is to initiate the rolling aspect while he's out of sync and slightly ahead of your 3/9 line and still +E.....

[Strip]

When your flying a plane with marginal stability, like the 51, use the snap stall charateristics to reverse your turn. This is faster by far than a aileron/rudder reversal. 

[TequilaChaser]

When your flying a plane with marginal stability, like the 51, use the snap stall charateristics to reverse your turn. This is faster by far than a aileron/rudder reversal. 

1- can you explain in more detail what you mean by the P51 being a plane with Marginal stability, please

2- can you describe in a more detail what you mean by "reversing your turn? and also how "snap stall characteristics" help to "reverse turns"

3- please define a aileron/rudder reversal in more detail


I am trying to understand your post and how it relates to the O.P.'s opening post........

Thank You in Advance

[Strip]

1. In general the P-51(or 190 etc) will drop a wing when you push it too hard in a turn. All planes do this of course but some more than others. The 190 and P-51 are planes that standout as they stall and drop a wing easier. The mossi is another example of the CoG instability. Iguess in terms of flight characteristics the 51 with a full Aux tank is my idea of marginal stability.

2. In a flat scissors as you usually pull a 180 roll to reverse the other direction. When I do a flat scissor (direction) reversal I elevator up, rudder left/right and stall the plane. It drops a wing and will (snap) roll extremely fast towards the stalled wing (correct or not I use the term snap-stall). As the plane rolls towards the direction you intend to go you opposite rudder and elevator down.  With planes like the P-51 (not so much the 190) it will produce a greater degree/second roll rate vs a pure aileron roll.

3.Aileron/rudder reversal simply applies to the 180 turn in a flat scissor. Aileron/rudder means just using aileron and rudder to roll the aircraft. \

<S>

[humble]

I'm not entirely sure I see a lot of advantage here in a true scissor. The scissor is not entirely rate of turn dependent....roll rate is a big factor. A plane like a zero or early 109 is very stiff at speeds in the 300 mph range so if you can stall a tip under control then maybe it would help...but a ponies roll rate is pretty good. The real key to a scissors is timing and speed management. Nothing fancy is really required, your not beating the other plane. Your really getting in the other pilots head, a sustained scissors is a sign you did it wrong or the other guy is very good. Normally a scissor is just that...one maybe 2 flat at the max to one or 2 rolling. If its not over then your in a true fight and at that point the last thing you want to do is scrub of E with chickenfeather stuff. You need that E to maintain the 3D spiral width (its flying a long way without going forward a lot that wins a rolling scissor).

Now once you percieve that your in act being forced out front then I can see using this type of move to alter the timing or just prior to the other guys shot window...

[strong10]

I've been finding, as of late, that using a scissors type movement to turn the tables on an opponent is a good way to get out of a potentially bad situation.  My problem is that I'm not exactly sure how to get the scissors started.

  Humbles post is very good.  Just like any dogfighting scenario the answer is "it depends"
  But you mention turn the tables on an opponent so I'm assuming there is somebody homing in on you from a superior position. 

           Scenerio-Lets say there is somebody coming in on you from your high six with slightly more speed which is common especially in multi-con engagements.  Pull up in similar direction of his lift vector to try and force an overshoot: This takes some timing and ideally you want him shooting so he commits to the turn.  This 'pull up' is done at close ranges 600-800 depending on closure rate and type of plane he is flying.  As soon as you see him starting to over shoot 'commence a 180 roll' and pull up again.  You will see him coming in very close to you and may have a 'snap shot' gun opportunity.  Your energy states are very close now and his options are to run with you very close on his six or turn back into you and enter the 'scissors of death'


Situation:  I have tunnel vision on a P39 in the 109K4 while a P38 is on my six at 800 with slightly more E than me.. I'm a goner right?  I apply above technique and am able to 'turn the tables'
After this engagement there is a yak BnZ'ing me and try above technique but he doesn't over commit and he is able to maintain a decent position but I did have a 'snapshot' opportunity on him. 

VIDEO  http://www.mediafire.com/?gqii4lzktwo


Everyone's worst nightmare scenerio:  In the 109K4 lollygagging around probably looking for bombers who will kill me anyway and I don't notice the spit16 creeping up to me unti he is less than 800 on my 6.  I mini split S to get separation then apply a small dive so our E almost equalizes as he chases me.  I start a small turn so he bleeds E and apply above technique to 'turn the tables'  and enter mini scissors where I get kill shot like 10ft off my nose with a 30mm explosion that my engine disagrees with. 

VIDEO  http://www.mediafire.com/?2wn4mrdiyj5

So these are 2 situations where I had disadvantage and turn it around.  Simple way to practice these outside of the training arena are fly around low until you get somebody to dive on you. 

If you ever wanna practice this or anything else, let me know.  I go to training arena often to learn new things and to help others improve gameplay. 

[BillyD]

        Humble hits the nail on the head, these moves are very timing, situation dependent. Def. look up Strong 10 he is a great guy to fight and learn from and don't make him get in an IL2 LMFAO Also look up any one of AOMs 109 jocks and they will show you some cool stuff. AGENT 360s K4 training vids have a number of scissor situations in them that can be applied to any plane with a bit of modification and are a must watch for defensive moves.

Here are some more films of scissor action

the flat scissor as a last ditch. with better sticks who know this trap you may have to combine a number of other moves to prevent you from being yo yoed to death. in a multi con situation this burns alot of e so usually you'll make the 1st six fly by but number 7 will get ya. use with care LOL! 

  
http://www.mediafire.com/?mlnzjzrwwzi

             For the rolling scissors a good way to initiate it is via a double immelman merge. In this film I fight Red959 to the death in K4s. I blow a couple oppritunities but the scissor fight is alot of fun. Make sure you manage you throttle decreasing as you go down and kickin it in as you go up. Flaps are a necessity.

http://www.mediafire.com/?nznzlm0onw2


             Another move I like that winds up in a rolling scissors sometimes or allows you to take a shot is what I dub the sunsfan D1 move cause he kindly shared it with me, its also similar to the one strong mentions...it's rather simple and involves a higher con on your six. As he pursues you wait a bit and pull into him vertically so he cant take the shot then roll your nose around to him pop your flaps and initiate a scissors if you are near co E or take the shot if you can

http://www.mediafire.com/?3ymmgymyn0g

and another
http://www.mediafire.com/?nuynyvzjmnd

[Agent360]

1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.

2. you have to create a speed difference. You either go slower or faster. Either one. Going slower is better....do this by reducing throttle and pulling hard G's...this works best if you drag to a right flat turn...watch for the lag off your tail then go up and over....you are now in scissors

3. Use the snap roll to "snap" your plane over 180 deg....if he follows....after the third turn...you are  now in scissors.

4. You can reverse CANOPY UP (typical) or CANOPY DOWN. Canopy down means you roll over like a split S but continue to roll so you now turn the opposite way..exactly the same as you would doing it canopy up. THis method will keep your energy. Canopy up robs your energy.

5. The closer you can draw them into guns range the better chance you have of making a reversal that they can not extend away from.

6. The LONG RANGE SCISSOR - Plane comes in from high dive. You KNOW you can not out run him. You can turn into and under effectivly exiting the fight. OR...you can turn 90 deg into him...allow closure off your wing tip ( keep him on your wing tip)...let him close to almost gun range ( d800) then immediatly reverse the other way ONLY 90 deg. Let him climb UP and OVER. Keep your wing on him. When he comes down you pull up....you are now in a close rolling scissor.

7. The RUDDER SCISSOR - Throttle to idle. full right rudder and skid hard to right. slight roll to right....hard left rudder and skid to left NOSE UP....hard right rudder nose up and skid right. In this case you are "inviting" a scissor fight. If he exits by going up or fly past make a 90 turn off his tail and extend. Wait for him to complete the vert turn and come in...when his nose is down turn into HIM FOR A MOMENT OF CLOSURE and THEN EARLY TURN UP PURPOSLY CORSSING HIS GUNS. Roll over and you are now in scissors.

[PFactorDave]

I really appreciate the posts so far, and the films too.  I'm looking forward to going through them.  

[trotter]

You have received a lot of really good specific advice so far. Just from a general standpoint, my advice is to always know the reason why you are initiating scissors. I've seen a lot of clueless pilots just start scissoring on me without a specific reason in mind, other than they "think" it's going to throw me off somehow. All they are doing is bleeding E and making my shot easier. Your scissors manuever should always be a direct extension of how you are either going to
1) spoil a shot,
2) or neutralize an enemy E advantage,
3) or manipulate angles to get a brief snapshot.

One of those three. Maybe there's another that I'm not yet advanced enough to be privy to, but start with those three.

Often, when you are doing one of the above, you won't have to think about when to initiate scissors, because it will come naturally as a defensive-------->offensive manuever.

I was going to explain a bit about the importance of watching your bandit in initiating scissors, but Agent360 covered it already. Read below, he's absolutely right.

1. you have to learn to fly looking backwards. While looking back watch for a lag behind your tail. This means it looks like he is falling down if your going up. At the moment he goes to lag pursuit REVERSE. As he crosses your tail IMMEDIATLY reverse....you are now in scissors.

[moot]

It's kind of a crutch, but starting off with a lateral offset always helps.

[PFactorDave]

It's kind of a crutch, but starting off with a lateral offset always helps.

Assume that I have know idea what you mean.  (I think I might know what you mean, but I've decided to try not to assume things that I'm not certain of)

Can you elaborate on what you mean, and how it is a crutch, and what would be preferable.

Thanks you in advance.

[TequilaChaser]

Assume that I have know idea what you mean.  (I think I might know what you mean, but I've decided to try not to assume things that I'm not certain of)

Can you elaborate on what you mean, and how it is a crutch, and what would be preferable.

Thanks you in advance.

Think of "football" & a "lateral"

to lateral they need to be off to your side a bit and behind you........ hope this gives ya a more mental picture

[moot]

Lateral offset means they have to turn to be pointed at you, to keep up with your relative (lateral) motion.  High bogie dives in from high 6  >  you turn to one side > they can only get a shot if they also turn >>> you're both already on the way to start scissoring.  Better than waiting for them by flying dead ahead and then trying to scissor once they're in guns range, because from that lined-up disposition you've yet to un-sync yourself and the bogie, which you need (everything else being equal) for your scissoring to succeed.