Brew and I-16 Climb Rate

[Skuzzy]

The online comparison charts have the I-16 and Brewster available.  Just saying.

[Widewing]

The online comparison charts have the I-16 and Brewster available.  Just saying.

Just note that this represents full internal fuel, something few will take for the Brewster. On the other hand, 100% fuel is essential for the I-16 if you want to fly out beyond visual range of the field you just left... 


My regards,

Widewing

[Saurdaukar]

If you care to wait a few hours until I get home, I can look this up in the applicable book.

Surprisingly enough, it is rather tough to determine order of battle, by variant.  Easily accessible information is lacking.  Ill spend some more time on it tomorrow but, so far as I can tell, the last Emil's in operational, front-line service were with III/JG5, Luftflotte 5, in the Low Countries in mid-1942.

III/JG5 had a mixture of both 109E-7's and 109F's at that time.  The serviceable 109's in that unit totaled 17.  So, barring additional research, there appear to have been less than 17 Emil's deployed in mid-1942.  I can find no accounts of the Emil's being deployed in 1943, at all.  By 1943, in fact, most of the F model's had already been replaced by Gustavs; the sole remaining units flying a mixture of F's and G's, in mid-1943 were III/JG5 and IV/JG5, who appear to have been given the "upgrade snub" throughout the war.

Cliffsnotes: Bf-109E's in front-line service in 1943 = Zero.

EDIT:  Widewing will be the one to confirm. 

[Wmaker]

The online comparison charts have the I-16 and Brewster available.  Just saying.

Thanks a lot Skuzzy! Didn't realize you had them up already!

Even though you got them up I had to do the test with 50% fuel as that corresponds to the conditions the manufacturer gave their specs and  thus FiAF tested the plane with.

So my work wasn't all in vain

[-aper-]

Surprisingly enough, it is rather tough to determine order of battle, by variant.  Easily accessible information is lacking.  Ill spend some more time on it tomorrow but, so far as I can tell, the last Emil's in operational, front-line service were with III/JG5, Luftflotte 5, in the Low Countries in mid-1942.

III/JG5 had a mixture of both 109E-7's and 109F's at that time.  The serviceable 109's in that unit totaled 17.  So, barring additional research, there appear to have been less than 17 Emil's deployed in mid-1942.  I can find no accounts of the Emil's being deployed in 1943, at all. 

Thanks for the info. Looks like Emils have gone even quicker than I-16s.

[Die Hard]

Aper, I'm not sure that comparison is valid either. The 109E may have been gone by 1943, but the 109 was not. In the case of the I-16 we're talking about the entire series, not just a specific sub-type. There may not be a completely valid comparison available.

[R 105]

Went back and reread what I saw on the I-16 in Russian Fighter Planes of WWII. It was the I-15 Biplane my mistake. However the I-16 is still inferior to even the 109-E4 and compares much closer to the P-40B.

[Saurdaukar]

Aper, I'm not sure that comparison is valid either. The 109E may have been gone by 1943, but the 109 was not. In the case of the I-16 we're talking about the entire series, not just a specific sub-type. There may not be a completely valid comparison available.

I disagree.  Changes to the 109 throughout its service life were so drastic that I believe the distinction by variant is necessary. 

Browsing through Wikipedia's article on the I-16, I dont see many huge changes by variant.  By comparison, the 109E and 109K might as well be considered different aircraft.  The only things they had in common were the fuselage and model designation.

I believe this is why so many 109's (and Spitfires, for that matter) are modeled in AH.  The differences between the first production 109's and last war-time 109's are just as wide as the differences between the P-40B and P-51D.

[Die Hard]

Browsing through Wikipedia's article on the I-16, I dont see many huge changes by variant.  By comparison, the 109E and 109K might as well be considered different aircraft.

Browsing through Wikipedia you wouldn't. However...

109E w/DB 601: 1,100 hp
109K w/DB 605DC: 2,000 hp
Increase in power from E to K: 81%

I-16 Type 4 w/M-22: 480 hp
I-16 Type 30 w/M-63: 1,000 hp
Increase in power from Type 4 to 30: 108%


The time lines can't be compared, but the I-16's performance increased significantly over its service life. So did its weight and armament.

[-aper-]

Aper, I'm not sure that comparison is valid either. The 109E may have been gone by 1943, but the 109 was not. In the case of the I-16 we're talking about the entire series, not just a specific sub-type. There may not be a completely valid comparison available.

From my point of view it's quite valid.
109E was in production approximately at the same time as late models of I-16 and approximately at the same time production of I-16 and Bf-109E was stopped. In two years both planes disappeared from the scene. If you want to take into consideration the earlier versions of I-16, you can assume that they disappeared earlier as well as earlier versions of Messerschmitt Bf-109B,C,D.

[OOZ662]

*dodges through the crapfest*

Just note that this represents full internal fuel, something few will take for the Brewster.

Actually, I've found 100% to be just about perfect. 75% cuts it a bit close. If this were WBIII, I'd probably take 85%.

[Die Hard]

Bf 109E production was not stopped. The production line was simply updated to the new Bf 109F model. The I-16 production line was stopped and had to be converted to something completely else. The change in production from 109E to F is more similar to the change in the I-16 production line from Type 4 to Type 5.

Btw. In your production table...




...where is the Type 30 which was produced in 1941-42?

[Wmaker]

See Rule #4 (trolling)

To what data do you base these claims on?

[Karnak]

Die Hard,

They were different generations of fighters though.  As the Bf109 was just ramping up, the I-16 was at its useful end so comparing the Bf109E to the I-16-24 is reasonable as they are contemporaries.

[Die Hard]

It's a problem when you compare the end of production of one aircraft with the transition to a new model of another aircraft. In 1941 the 109E's were being replaced with newer F's, and and later G's, regardless whether they were still airworthy, while the I-16 had to be put back into production for two more years in 1941 and soldiered on until mid-1943. It is hardly a valid comparison in my opinion.

Bf 109E production switched to the F model between October 1940 and January 1941. The I-16 was put back into production in 1941 and was produced until 1942. How is that a useful comparison when trying to determine the number of I-16's still in service in 1943?