109 flight model

[Guppy35]

If it was the summer of 1944, wouldn't JG 52 have faced groups from the 15th AF over Romania as they defended Ploesti?


ack-ack

Yep, at the same time the Russian Shuttle 51s, including the 4th and 352nd also ran into German fighters while operating with the Italy 51s as part of that Russian shuttle run.  Bob Goebel, a 15th AF 51 driver talks about that time in his book on his days with the 31st.  Part of the conversation was about how some of the 8th 51 guys had a bit of ETO arrogance towards the 'minor leagues" of the MTO.  That was until they got into combat with the LW drivers the 15th fighter pilots regularly met.

[pipz]

hehehe I remember reading that.He said the 8th guys had on theyre fancy jackets ,scarves and what have ya and looked like movie stars or something to that effect <G>


Pipz

[Motherland]

Hmm. Had the book in my hand when I said 45.  That was the time mentioned in the chapter callled "Mustangs".  If it was Summer 44 he'd probably have bumped into the Russian Shuttle run 51 escorts

One of the Mustang fights he talks about was when the Mustangs and Russian fighters got into it after the 109s dove through.

Note that the first part of the chapter is a flashback from when Hartmann is reassigned from Me 262 training back to I/JG52 in Czechoslovakia... which would make that around March/April.
'Erich's squadron was ordered to operate from a grass strip at Zilistea, a few minutes' flying time from Ploesti. The date was 23 June 1944'
Then it comes back to I/JG52 in Czechoslovakia after his encounter with the Mustangs that forced him to bail out.
'Erich reviewed these five battles with the P-51 Mustangs, which had taken place in the spring of 1944, as he droned through his air journey back to Czechoslovakia. Almost a year had passed since he had battled the Americans in Rumania. By now, they would certainly be stronger.'

[Guppy35]

Note that the first part of the chapter is a flashback from when Hartmann is reassigned from Me 262 training back to I/JG52 in Czechoslovakia... which would make that around March/April.
'Erich's squadron was ordered to operate from a grass strip at Zilistea, a few minutes' flying time from Ploesti. The date was 23 June 1944'
Then it comes back to I/JG52 in Czechoslovakia after his encounter with the Mustangs that forced him to bail out.
'Erich reviewed these five battles with the P-51 Mustangs, which had taken place in the spring of 1944, as he droned through his air journey back to Czechoslovakia. Almost a year had passed since he had battled the Americans in Rumania. By now, they would certainly be stronger.'

Interesting to note the story in "Blonde Knight" the story of his fight with 8 Mustangs where he bails out and the Mustang leader blows past him with a wave.   Bob Goebel describes a similar incident in his book taking place July 3, 44, which fits the timeframe, where his flight of 4 Mustangs boxed in a 109.  As in Hartmann's story the 109 wingman dives away while the Mustangs follow the lead 109.  And Goebel describes lining up for a camera pass on the 109 pilot after he bailed and blowing by the 109 driver and half wave-half saluting the guy in his chute.

Could be Hartmann was Goebel's 4th 109 claim.

Also interesting to note that the Shuttle run missions do not coincide with Hartmann's Mustang claims so he didn't run into the 352nd, and the 15th AF Mustang Groups didn't lose as many as Hartmann claimed.

Ahh the fog of war

[Angus]

Marseille's claims don't add up either. But again, there was not much chance he could have seen them all actually go down in such a short time.

[Krupinski]

found this interesting while surfing today ...

http://manaboutmayfair.blogspot.com/2006/04/aces-high-ww-ii.html

As others have said, I highly doubt this was Erich Hartmann.

[Lusche]

As others have said, I highly doubt this was Erich Hartmann.

I highly doubt this has happened this way at all.

[Krupinski]

I highly doubt this has happened this way at all.

Heh, I was thinking that too.