Game is reaching new lows.

[Shuffler]

For some reason, you don't seem to apply the same logic when a fight happens between a lesser-skilled average joe vs. a l33T vet.

Here's the fact, Fugi - by definition a better-skilled player is inherently ALWAYS fighting with the advantage. I mean, these guys neutralize alt-advantages, can outmaneuver you even with a bigger, fatter plane, can hit you from d600+ when you can't hit the broadside of the barn from d200, pull all kinds of blind-lead shots, and sometimes even beat numbers odds.

Here's a fact your missing.... Fugi didn't get better by running. He is only saying why run in a game of combat. You can only improve if you try. If you don't at least try you may as well be playing airport in MSFS.

Going up against folks that are better than you can only help you improve. No matter how good you are in this game there is always someone better.


Run to learn how to Race, Fight to learn how to Fight.

[humble]

Having been here since the open Beta (9/99) and active in AW before it hit AOL thru till leaving for AH (lets say 1993 onward) I'd say that that a few things stand out. The Game (and game play) have evolved or devolved based on your perspective. To me the single biggest change was the flight model change in version 1.4 (going from memory) which fundamentally "dumbed down" the need for E management significantly (IMO). I think this was a response to the large influx of AW "RR" pilots. The original FM was a significant step up in difficulty (again my opinion) from AW "FR" with regard to E bleed and the players transitioning from AW RR had very tough sledding.

The reality is that the nature of the game has changed both do to numbers and various changes in the game. When most fights were either one one one or small "furball" affairs then getting a "good score" required a lot of ACM skill, especially with the high rate of "E bleed". As numbers went up and more and more late war planes were modeled that changed. So the parameters for score changed and the expanded nature of the community changed. In addition the changing environment crept ever closer to "real world" in the sense of player density and combat environment. So "real" WW2 tactics have a more beneficial effect and the old WW1 style "lone wolf" type of flying yields lower tangible results during "prime time". As a result a player who has come into the game in the last 2-3 years can develop a combination of gunnery and SA skills with relatively minimal ACM and do very nicely. I rarely fly that style but on those occasions I do (almost always when giving someone an "MA" orientation flight) its relatively simple to wrack up a few kills (3-5) per sortie even with my poor gunnery.

So what has changed is the skill set required to succeed, and the player base has adapted accordingly. However there are and will always be those that still look to learn and absorb quality ACM skills. The truth is that that type of flying is just more fun once you get beyond the win or lose aspect of the game.

Where the two sides meet is the conflict. Last weekend I ended up flying the "2nd LWA" since the numbers didnt allow me to log into the top one where my squad was flying. By circumstance I ended up in an interesting little 1 on 2. I was in a ki-84 and was nursing a small E/alt advantage vs a spit XVI that had just upped (I had dragged over the field at 4k or so and he climbed up following) so we were a bit away from the flow of action. An la-7 followed him out and we had a fun little fight with the spit flying a vertical fight eating into my margins and the La a looser E fight trying to time my verticals. This left me evading the LA just about every time the spit was vulnerable. The spitty got up to almost co alt/E and I had to convert to a climbing scissors fight to force the la out of sync and overshoot. I got a snap shot on the la and forced him to dive out and reversed back into the spitty which now had some position. Had a great 90 sec or so of action with the spitty and had fought back to just about even when the la swooped in again. I avoided him but in so doing totally gave up my parity with the spitty. The la-7 went vertical and chopped (or so it looked) to dive back on down...and got victimized by a fly by...leaving me alone with the spitty. I had to dive out and then chop into a desending violent type scissor to force the spitty to overspeed and break...leaving me with a neg E merge at an alt disadvantage. The spitty driver could fly and worked some nice hi yoyo style reverses with me reversing back up into his yoyo;s trying to keep inside low position and give the threat of being able to hang the prop on him if he tried to convert to a climbing spiral. So we worked this cat and mouse for a good 3 min or so and had just reached that point where either he'd convert the vertical or i'd get us slow enough to get my flaps out and claw around on him...so there we sit with me nose up desperately trying to pull a wide enough amplitude to get under 165 and he nose down looking to eek enough speed out of that nose down to claw up over top and finally seize the perch on me. My last view of the spit was in symmetry to me at about 30 degree nose down and in my front up/quarter as I was 45 degree inverted looking to pull down...knowing he had the E to pop up and I was trying to gauge where his "donut hole" would be looking to float up under his reverse at the top into that small area where he couldnt get guns to bear and would need to either try a double E/spiral climb or hopefully dive out and in effect reset the fight....when the La-7 screamed back in and cleared his 12 and the saluted me

And then was upset when I vented my spleen on him....He didn't even begin to understand that I wasn't "mad" about dying...I just wanted to see how the stinkin fight would end. It's like reading 375 pages of a 400 page book and finding out someone ripped out the last 25 pages. To a old school "1 on 1" guy like me every fight like that is personal and enjoyable win or lose. To a new school "drive by" shooter nothing is up close and personal.

So to me at least this game has become more about who I fly with then the game itself. While I still have a lot of fun and many good fights the above is more and more the rule then the exception these days....

[Soulyss]

Some interesting observations in there Snap, I hadn't really given population density over the span of several years much thought before, how the size of a furball or how the number of planes in a given space affect the flow of cartoon battle.  Reminds me of my time back in the old Combat Theater when we used to run Guadalcanal setups.  The primary fight was between the A6M2 and the F4F-4.  In off peak hours when the numbers were low and thus most fights involved very few people ACM, and the A6M ruled the roost.  There was simply very little most players could do to the Zeke in a 1v1, but as the numbers increased and pilots SA became overloaded it wasn't uncommon for the allied players to wipe the skies of all opposition, ACM counted for less because the pilots just couldn't sort through all the information.  The environment negated the maneuverability of the Zero, deck speed, armor, firepower counted more, things that favored the F4F. 

I recall the FM change back in AH1, and I think it was a significant change to how the planes behaved, and how people flew I don't think it really adversely effected game-play.  The FM was a level change across the board if I remember right.  E retention I believe was boosted compared to the original FM, but it was boosted for all planes the same relationship between aircraft remained intact, I don't think it favored one type over another.   

[SKJohn]

I feel like I owe the AH community an apology - I'm afraid that I was the cause of BnZ's original rant about the game reaching new lows.  A couple of days ago I went to the aid of a fellow Rook pilot who was being attacked by BnZs.  After a few turns he got behind me.  Being over my base, I dove down into the ack.  Being the experienced pilot he is, he of course followed me down into the ack not only once, but then again.  When the ack killed him on the second time thru, he pm'ed me and told me how pathetic I was, and that i was an embarrasment to AH, and a eunuch.

At first I ignored him, but then I guess he took the time to look up my stats, then returned to the PM's to make fun of my K/D percentage, and to ask if I realized how bad of a pilot I had to be to lose (he died, right?) a 109 vs P38 fight.  At this point I pm'ed him back and asked him how good you have to be to get killed by ack.  Apparently this was a mistake as he then came onto my vox channel and proceeded to call me a fornicating piece of fecal matter . . . then went on 200 and started complaining about the game going downhill.

As others have pointed out, I guess if you don't fight the kind of fight the other guy wants you to (read: get killed by him), then you can expect to be both verbally and textually assaulted.  I mean, what the heck, I didn't make him chase me thru the ack either time, and he died, right?  Wouldn't a "good" pilot know better than to chase somebody thru the field ack?  And especially not the second time?

As I said, I'm sorry that this turned into a 12+ page discussion.  This whole thread cold have been prevented if I had just let him kill me at the beginning.

[j500ss]

I feel like I owe the AH community an apology - I'm afraid that I was the cause of BnZ's original rant about the game reaching new lows.  A couple of days ago I went to the aid of a fellow Rook pilot who was being attacked by BnZs.  After a few turns he got behind me.  Being over my base, I dove down into the ack.  Being the experienced pilot he is, he of course followed me down into the ack not only once, but then again.  When the ack killed him on the second time thru, he pm'ed me and told me how pathetic I was, and that i was an embarrasment to AH, and a eunuch.

At first I ignored him, but then I guess he took the time to look up my stats, then returned to the PM's to make fun of my K/D percentage, and to ask if I realized how bad of a pilot I had to be to lose (he died, right?) a 109 vs P38 fight.  At this point I pm'ed him back and asked him how good you have to be to get killed by ack.  Apparently this was a mistake as he then came onto my vox channel and proceeded to call me a fornicating piece of fecal matter . . . then went on 200 and started complaining about the game going downhill.

As others have pointed out, I guess if you don't fight the kind of fight the other guy wants you to (read: get killed by him), then you can expect to be both verbally and textually assaulted.  I mean, what the heck, I didn't make him chase me thru the ack either time, and he died, right?  Wouldn't a "good" pilot know better than to chase somebody thru the field ack?  And especially not the second time?

As I said, I'm sorry that this turned into a 12+ page discussion.  This whole thread cold have been prevented if I had just let him kill me at the beginning.

WOW !  He takes the time to look up YOUR stats, then makes fun of you. Hmmmmm, maybe your not the one with the issue.   You at the time had made a decision you wanted to live and used your resources to do so, he got popped by ack and did not like your style.  I'm just not seeing the new low some speak of.  Yes there are those who run, HO, stay high, or hug ack.  Whatever the reasons, it is what they do, I just deal with it.  Sometimes it costs me, sometimes it does not, no big deal really.

I have read most of the thread and while I agree with some, like any normal, rational individual, there are things I disagree with too.   Seems to be quite a bit of talk about how, and what the "vets" are doing in game and the examples they may or may not be setting.  I fly against and with a vet or 2 on ocassion, some are "adult" about it, some not, seems they want riduicule (sp?) your flying, I think they are just looking for a quicker kill so as to pad their score.   

On the other hand, the majority IMO, no matter how easy a kill you are now, like to see you come back, I think the belief is practice makes perfect, for both parties, some go so far as to tell you, where or how you went wrong.  Thats my take anyways, yea there are lows in the game, question is what are YOU!!! doing to correct it?   In the arena I play in, I'm sure there some who don't care for what, or how I do things.  Thats cool, if they have a suggestion or opinion, I'll listen and go forward from there.  In the end I try to be respectable to all, put up a good and fair fight, not give 2 craps about score, and have some fun!  After all its my free time, I want to have some enjoyment and fun.


<S>

[thorsim]

As I said, I'm sorry that this turned into a 12+ page discussion.  This whole thread cold have been prevented if I had just let him kill me at the beginning.

yea we knew it was something  like that ...

BnZ <<<

[crazyivan]

At first I ignored him, but then I guess he took the time to look up my stats, then returned to the PM's to make fun of my K/D percentage, and to ask if I realized how bad of a pilot I had to be to lose (he died, right?) a 109 vs P38 fight.  At this point I pm'ed him back and asked him how good you have to be to get killed by ack.  Apparently this was a mistake as he then came onto my vox channel and proceeded to call me a fornicating piece of fecal matter . . . then went on 200 and started complaining about the game going downhill.

 Class act this one is.

[CAP1]

yea we knew it was something  like that ...

BnZ <<<

i don't think you've got room to be laughing at bnz dude........

or anyone for that matter.........just sayin..........

[whiteman]

i don't think you've got room to be laughing at bnz dude........

or anyone for that matter.........just sayin..........

no, anyone lame enough to do what SKJohn described is a loser and deserves to be laughed at by others.

[Shuffler]

<snip>
As others have pointed out, I guess if you don't fight the kind of fight the other guy wants you to (read: get killed by him), then you can expect to be both verbally and textually assaulted.  

1) PMing anyone to rant is just ignorant. PMing to asks questions about the fight is ok.

2)  How do you know you'd be killed by him. You didn't even try so who knows. All we do know is that you dove to ack and he died in the ack chasing you.

[SKJohn]

1) PMing anyone to rant is just ignorant. PMing to asks questions about the fight is ok.

2)  How do you know you'd be killed by him. You didn't even try so who knows. All we do know is that you dove to ack and he died in the ack chasing you.
[/quote











Like I said, I did go a few turns with him, so yes, I did try.  After awhile, he got behind me and that's when I dove down into the ack.  We were right over my field, so why not use the resources available to survive?

[saantana]

Ahh. I knew there was more to this story then was posted by the OP.

And yes, I can and will laugh at him!

Sometimes I too get frustrated by someone running away from me, and have sent off one or two PMs But unloading on someone with vox is where you cross the line.

[ink]

this game rocks plain and simple,  its the "players" that are at a new "low" not the game.

every day I fly I see the "dweebyness" of most players, and sad to say its not just "noobs", but screw it I still have a blast, and could give two craps about how someone else flies or what they fly

[CAP1]

no, anyone lame enough to do what SKJohn described is a loser and deserves to be laughed at by others.

why?

virtually EVERYONE has run to ack at one time or another. if they tell you otherwise, they're lying.

now, that said, when i've done it, i still die a flaming cartoon death. it seems the ack doesn't like to protect me. 

[Shuffler]

Like I said, I did go a few turns with him, so yes, I did try.  After awhile, he got behind me and that's when I dove down into the ack.  We were right over my field, so why not use the resources available to survive?

Two turns...... hardly trying. Guy getting on your six does not mean you lost till you gave up. I suggest staying close to your fields if your worried about getting shot down. You have to do more than a couple of turns to begin improving.

Not saying anything is wrong with running to ack. Just saying that if your only method of surviving is going to ack.... don't travel far.