"that" apache video

[minke]

I'm showing my ignorance here, without any journalistic or RL military experience. But wouldnt the SOP for a journalist in a combat zone be to contact the military with their location? Or indeed have a procedure in place to identify themselves and their planned route?
Hanging round an area with known ground forces, air support and desolate streets is a recepie for utter disaster. As for poking a camera round the side of a building bracing yourself like that, well thats got "shoot me" all over it.

Terrible what happened, but then they had no urgent business to be there, and bringing kids?? seriously??

[RufusLeaking]

It is very easy to identify the enemy: The enemy shoots at you.

Not in the fight against terrorists.  It could be a guy on a bus with an explosive vest.  By your logic, no action should be taken until the guy detonates.

I am not trying to be glib.  The West, the USA in particular, is in a fight against non-state enemies.  These people do not have uniforms, government, or even a united agenda.  For all the press that Bin Laden gets, he is not in operational control.  No one is.

Regarding peace without fighting, I am open to ideas.  I have thought about what would get the terrorists to stop.  The only scenario that I can come up with is something like pre-war Iraq or Afghanistan.  Neither was a paradise.  From their citizens perspective, were they better?  For some, yes.  For most, I don't believe so.

Regarding the video, I haven't seen it.  It seems a decision was made on the spot that is now getting second guessed.

[jimson]

Can't comment on the specifics, it's just not clear enough to me whether these people could be seen, even mistakenly as a threat or not.

There is a big difference in that when we kill innocents it is generally regarded as an error  
or an unfortunate by-product of the deployment of firepower.

Our enemies do it intentionally as a tactic and are proud of it.

Never equate the two.

[Wolfala]

I find it interesting that an organization such as wikileaks that supposedly fought for an extended period of time to obtain the video, released a version that has been heavily edited.  I will pass judgment when I see the video evidence in its entirety.

Edited and removed for the SK

[Skuzzy]

I cannot view YooToob videos, but if it shows someone actually being killed, it does not belong here.  If that is the case, then this thread needs to be locked.  If it cannot be discussed properly, I would rather not have it on here at all.

[Jayhawk]

I cannot view YooToob videos, but if it shows someone actually being killed, it does not belong here.  If that is the case, then this thread needs to be locked.  If it cannot be discussed properly, I would rather not have it on here at all.

The video does show a US helicopter firing and killing people.  Youtube requires you to log in to verify your age before viewing. Your call sir.

[Die Hard]

I find it interesting that an organization such as wikileaks that supposedly fought for an extended period of time to obtain the video, released a version that has been heavily edited.  I will pass judgment when I see the video evidence in its entirety.

They have both the short version and the full version on their site [link removed].

[Kazaa]

Take the link down Die Hard, you'll get the thread locked.

[68Hawk]

This event was certainly tragic on a number of levels.

Having viewed the redacted clip that wikileaks posted (with editorial commentary) I can confidently say that the soldiers didn't do anything wrong.  Rules of Engagement were followed and a respectable level of fire discipline was exercised. 

The van incident does seem a little dubious when viewed from the comfort of a desk chair, but from the perspective of the tiny MFDs in the air (and in the context of the situation) it looks like fellow insurgents coming to aid their buddies and recover equipment.  It would have been impossible to notice the children in the van without the screen zoomed in and blown up. 

To those who can't deal with soldier's language I have nothing to say.

[Die Hard]

Why don't we hear about our allies doing something like this?

[rabbidrabbit]

Why don't we hear about our allies doing something like this?

You mean like the germans and those fuel tankers in Astan?  Combat is ugly work.  As a society, we can only ask of the few of us who volunteer to carry the sharp tip of the spear that they do their best and promise our best to support them and the burdens we put on them.

[kilo2]

Honestly Die Hard do you think those soldiers woke up and thought, you know I am going to kill some civilians today. Oh and for giggles wound some children.

NO they did not it was a mistake and put your self in their shoes they look like insurgents gathered with weapons. The reporters made a mistake being with people with weapons in a area where a battle is going on. It is a sad story but it is war bad things are going to happen you can not stop it.

[Kazaa]

Honestly Die Hard do you think those soldiers woke up and thought, you know I am going to kill some civilians today. Oh and for giggles wound some children.

NO they did not it was a mistake and put your self in their shoes they look like insurgents gathered with weapons. The reporters made a mistake being with people with weapons in a area where a battle is going on. It is a sad story but it is war bad things are going to happen you can not stop it.

You mean like these Marines did?

[Link removed]

[Vulcan]

I'm showing my ignorance here, without any journalistic or RL military experience. But wouldnt the SOP for a journalist in a combat zone be to contact the military with their location? Or indeed have a procedure in place to identify themselves and their planned route?
Hanging round an area with known ground forces, air support and desolate streets is a recepie for utter disaster. As for poking a camera round the side of a building bracing yourself like that, well thats got "shoot me" all over it.

Terrible what happened, but then they had no urgent business to be there, and bringing kids?? seriously??

Well the place was / appears to be a residential suburb in baghdad. You're assuming the mission was planned, and I doubt the military would openly publish such activities. So you have a 'fog of war'.

The van was a guy taking his kids to school, he came around the corner upon the scene and decided to lend a hand some time after the firing stopped. Now put yourself in his position, you're driving along, you come across a dozen guys dead and mostly unarmed (we are talking 2 guns and 1 potential rpg across 12-15 bodies). A couple of people are wounded but alive. Do you stop and help or do you drive through letting them bleed to death on the road?

IMHO the guy in the van was a hero. And no I do not think the pilots could see them in there, I think wikileaks is wrong in doing their zoom/enhance on the video which those in the fight did not have the luxury or time for.  BTW the kids did survive.

[gyrene81]

You mean like these Marines did, that one day back when?

Get rid of that link Kazaa...unless you really want this thread locked.


Did you happen to hear the return fire ricocheting off the walls where those Marines were? Any civilians in that area were too stupid for their own good...nobody with any sense drives their car through a gunfight or even takes the chance of peeking out a window until the shooting is over.