HTC give us the choice!!!!!!

[oTRALFZo]

Personally, I have no issue with vulching and dont see why anyone would. If im in a fight/furball and we push the fight over the enemy  base and establish a cap on it imo we earned the vulch and eventually the base. Same goes for if i get forced back over my own field. I really dont see the point in not vulching someone who's trying to take off from a base you're trying to CAP. What are we suppose to do? "Honorably" let them roll and shoot them when they're doing about 170-200mph? Or do we wait 'til they're at least 5k agl and 300mph?  

Just using that as an example. There is an uproar that the NOE tactic is gone, which in fact its not. Its just alot harder now. In the same effect, theoretically if HTC made vulching alot harder by I dunno..increasing ack at a field etc. I wouldn't throw a fit like some did in these threads.
On a side note, I hear lots of people saying this will end up in FHs being shut down. I agree for every action, there is a reaction. Perhaps this now means that you will get more of a horde shutting down bases. That consequence can be stomached more than having to deal with the guys flying around trying not to be detected.

[Bronk]

On a side note, I hear lots of people saying this will end up in FHs being shut down. I agree for every action, there is a reaction. Perhaps this now means that you will get more of a horde shutting down bases. That consequence can be stomached more than having to deal with the guys flying around trying not to be detected.

Ohh look huge dar popping in sector x  x. Ohh look its now it is in in sector x y.

Compared to ohh look base flashing 3 min later town down.
no, no difference at all.

[TW9]

In the same effect, theoretically if HTC made vulching alot harder by I dunno..increasing ack at a field etc. I wouldn't throw a fit like some did in these threads.

Not sure if you've been around long enough but HTC has infact doubled the ack and made it harder to kill. I honestly cant remember whether or not there was an uproar over it. Im not sure if the aim was directed at vulchers or the base sneakers. Personally, I think HTC just wants better game play. We may not always agree with what he does (I know I definitely didnt agree with a lot of them) but the company has been around long enough to where we should just stfu and assume the guy knows what he's doing.

[Ghosth]

While I also have been known to enjoy a good vulch from time to time. For the most part I prefer to let them get wheels up, 200 mph, and out of the base ack.

Beyond that, if you don't want to get shot, up from a different field, and go vulch the vulchers.

[AWwrgwy]

My definition of "Combat" includes actually fighting someone.  This being a MMOG, that would involve fighting actual people.

Sense of accomplishment?  Where are all the "lets just give everyone a trophy" people?

The new dar settings aren't about preventing NOE's, they are about trying to make it easier to find a fight.  A side consequence may be making NOE harder but it should be seen as a challenge instead of a discouragement.

How's that for a sense of accomplishment?


wrongway

[AKP]

Ok... what has it been...  4 or 5 days?  I have read the posts of those that hate the change, and those that like it.  For what it is worth... here is my opinion and a few facts:

1) Tower Based Warning Range did not change... it is still 12 miles to make a base flash.  So unless you are watching the map, the new radar settings wont tell you about an inbound strike.

2) Ok... the radar rings overlap.  In many cases they run right up to adjacent bases.  But lets look at this for a moment.  Just take notice about which direction you take off from and dont lift into an active enemy dar ring if you can avoid it.  Also, with overlapping radar rings, it is a huge advantage to defenders... meaning that you have to drop the radar at several bases now in order to make a path through the radar.  I dont see a problem with this.

3) Are the new settings historically accurate?  No.. but the old ones werent either.  Neither is "Dar Bar".  Nor is the ability to refuel and rearm in 30 seconds, repair a smoked turret or busted track on a tank instantly with a single box of supplies without getting out of the tank, spawning instantly at a spawn point in a GV or LVT, flying in F3 Mode in a bomber, autotakeoff, stall limiter, the ability to see the radar while flying, the bombsights we use, etc... etc... etc.  

Why are these things NOT historically accurate?  To make the game more playable.  So I dont think that arguing that the radar settings are not "Historically Accurate" is valid.  If this game were 100% historically accurate, there would be far less players than there are now... and many aspects of it that just simply would not be worth doing at all.

4) NOE raids had become more of the standard for many players when it came to attacking a base with the intent to take it.  Unfortunately, in most cases an NOE raid is done to avoid combat with the defending forces rather than engage and defeat them.  Over and over again, HiTech has adjusted things to PROMOTE combat rather than allow people to avoid it.  This isnt a game about who can be the sneakiest base taker.  If you want to take bases, there are countless ways to do it without avoiding combat.  On that note, the bases should REALLY start to flash when being shelled by a CV group, if not at a set range that the CV gets within... but I digress.  I enjoy fighting over bases, but I dont care for doing it with no opposition.  I want defenders to come up and fight.  That is what makes playing this game fun!  So we all know WHY the radar settings were changed, and I dont see them going back to the way they were happening any time soon, if at all.  To sum this point up, bases can still be taken if you so choose to take them.  But the tactic of massive, frequent NOE raids by heavy bombers are a thing of the past.  Change your tactics.

5) If you want to fly in an arena that has the old radar settings, and radar settings that vary from map to map... fly in the AvA.  Some good sticks fly in there, and the maps are awesome.  Also, give FSO a try.  For most FSO's, we dont even have radar... friendly OR enemy.  Hell... FSO is the main reason I play Aces High now.  And the ride I fly in the MA during the week is usually the one I will be in on Friday night in FSO so I can get some practice in.  So I see no reason for a separate arena to see which way people like better.  Last time I checked, while our voices are heard by HTC, this isnt a democracy.  We dont have a vote, unless HTC chooses to give us one.

So... if anyone cares... as you may have guessed, I am fine with the new radar settings.  I tend to follow this outlook... "It is what it is".  Whining and complaining isnt going to change it... and I personally dont see a valid reason that has been presented since the change that would warrant a change back to the old system.  We need to turn the page, and get back to the business at hand, which is killing little cartoon pilots, in their little cartoon planes.   And business is a BOOMin!  

  to you all.

[WMLute]

Are you honestly trying to compare sneaking a massive hoard NOE to an undefended base well away from any enemy dar bar to being a Sniper?

To be fair, I have run NOE base sneaks in the past.  I will probably use that tactic in the future.  Those types of missions have their place.

Even HiTech agreed that it is a safe tactic that is tactically sound.

The difference is I would run that type of mission MAYBE one or two out of 20.

I feel that the changes made happened because there are some large squads that use that tactic 18-19 out of 20.  I also understand why you posted as you did.  We have had this discussion many times over the years in many threads.

It was your squad that really started this style of game play.  (to be fair I should say made it "common" as opposed to "started")  There is nothing that the current crop of 'mega-squads' is doing that wasn't done by the BOPs in years past.  I wonder if they even know that they have you and yours to thank for this?

Need I remind you of the following post/thread...

FALCONWING: Please do not confuse my post as bop bashing. I have never stated the Bops wanted to always be on the country side with numbers. Nore do I belive game play like the Bops "win the war" stratagy is a bad thing. Nor do I belive coradinating tatics as a bad thing.

(edited for space but click the link and read it all.  Good stuff here)

HiTech

The NOE hoard style of base capture was taken to excess and thus HiTech felt the need to step in and do something about it.

The players brought it on themselves.

And while it is true I was flying my last hop of the night in a mass of Knits last TT the base being attacked was also very well defended and it was a hard fought battle.

There is no correlation between that and the topic at hand.  The knits didn't try to swarm the field NOE and when the base got defended moved on to another field across the map.  IIRC I did help start that mass of knits rolling bases and I was involved with orchestrating quite a few captures earlier that night.  That particular 262 run was my last of the evening and I was just having fun with a squaddie in a large fight.

I will also add that not one of the 6-8 fields I helped the knits to capture were taken using NOE swarms and surprise.

[The Fugitive]

Maybe a rebuttal would be why a can't capturing a field involve a path of least resistance??  In the military, there are covert operations that are done with least resistance.  So why not here?

It just seems that (let the dust settle), base taking will slow down and yes, I see this as a furballers dream.  As much as I love to furball, there are many dynamics of this game that should be respected and not belittled.

IMO

As HT said, while the NOE's are strategically the best way to go about it it is nowhere near being called combat, and as the game is about combat he made the change.

I don't see why this would slow down the base capture. Sure it will be a bit harder to capture a base, but better planing and organization of an attacking force will always win out over a defense that is just thrown up. After all there are no squads that do nothing but sit together in the tower and all move to the next base to be under attack to add some organized defense to.

Lute

There is no reason why it can't involve combat but i feel you may be too myopic in your view...

I guess the first concept i would challenge is why is YOUR definition of combat the only one you recognize?  For example in Tribes, Brothers at Arms, and other fighting sims there is an option to be a sniper.  many would criticize these folks as "cowards" "gutless" but the bottom line is being sneaky and planning "path of least resistance" "less likely to die" attacks is more appealing to some  then brute force. In World of Warcraft and Everquest one can become more powerful by commerce and trading then they could ever hope to by simply running around and collecting and killing things.  Guys who prefer "the fight" are quick to denigrate those who don't.   Both styles of play in my opinion are legitimate...you seem to view the one that results in a large clash as the only style that should be appropriate.

Those games are all geared toward a "goal". Capture the fly, beat the big boss and so on. While here we do have the "win the war" but the owner/designer of this game has said that is just a path the create combat which is what the game is all about.

Webster's defines combat as..

1. An engagement fought between two military forces.
2. The act of fighting; any contest or struggle.
3. A fight; a contest of violence; a struggle for supremacy.
4. An engagement of no great magnitude; or one in which the parties engaged are not armies.

Doesn't say anything about sneaking around, hiding, or avoiding a confrontation.

I have been out of the base capture part of the game for a long time because there was no challenge to it. 5 guys could NOE all night and fail 1 in 10 big deal. 15-20 guys with a plan could do the same at 10k and maybe fail a bit more, even so, no real challenge. With these changes it adds a bit more challenge, players will have to be a bit more on their game to succeed, I see nothing wrong with that.  

[lulu]

 "in most cases an NOE raid is done to avoid combat with the defending forces rather than engage and defeat them."

This is not true for me.

Second I don't hate new settings.
I Thought that It would be better with a preventive discussion among us and HTC
- obviously that HTC has the last word.


"The difference is I would run that type of mission MAYBE one or two out of 20."

Who tells You NO???

 

[AKP]

"in most cases an NOE raid is done to avoid combat with the defending forces rather than engage and defeat them."

This is not true for me.

Second I don't hate new settings.
I Thought that It would be better with a preventive discussion among us and HTC
- obviously that HTC has the last word.

 

Understood lulu... that is why I said, "In MOST cases"  There are valid reasons for an occasional NOE raid, and there are those that understand that.  Many however, do not.

[lulu]

I admit, as I wrote, that to have more vehicles around would be a good thing.

But this is not me for me a true goal. (Who takes care! You could say  )

The game now seems more number dependent, so that if You are interested to
win the war, then this is a bad thing.

As example.
I remember when there were factories that those target was an element of strategy.
You went there, damaged it, waited for some cons that so You subtracted from the hordes
attaking or defending other countries.

Another example.
Let's put some strong squadron together in the same country. What will happens?

Last one. Flying noe becomes more borrowing then difficult (I not saying it is easy mode).

 

[lulu]

Why Athena image is armed?

Do You remember the story of Trojan Horse?
That is the key point of ALL war!
I think that every soldier knows that!

Win a war by cruel combat is an illusion.

So we need an effective HQ (strategic head quarter) to coordinate and split the horde!

In Bishops Who want to cooperate to build own one!?

   

[AKP]

Just as an example of an NOE raid that was done to promote combat...

Back before HTC changed the strat system, me a few squaddies took 3 110's and a goon on an NOE mission to a VBase that was FAR behind enemy lines.  I forget the name of the map, but the VBase we were heading for had a spawn point into the capitol up in the NE corner, surrounded by uncaptureable air bases.  We flew under dar for 7 or 8 sectors through the mountains and took with base without opposition... mostly because they never thought to look that far in their rear for a base under attack.  Everyone on our side that night bailed and came to the base as soon as we had it.  After blowing up the HQ with LVT's... we waited.  And we didnt have to wait for long.  Every player on the team we just hit dropped what they were doing and came to get their base back... which is exactly what we wanted.  We knew we werent going to keep it... we just did it to stir things up a bit.  But what we didnt know, was that it would light the fuse on a fight over that base that would last at least 2 hours!  It was like we had smacked a hornets nest with a stick and just stood there.

Wave after wave of Lancs and heavy fighters came in to flatten the base and kill all of us.  Bombs and flaming planes fell from the sky like rain.  Tanks and Flaks were exploding left and right and darting all over the place to try and stay alive.  Every time they would get us down to the last GV, a hangar would pop and it started all over again.  We were all laughing our butts off and having a great time!  And there were LOL's and <S>'s being handed out from both sides as the fight went on and on and on.  They eventually got the base back... it was late, and players from both sides started logging off for the evening... tired, but happy.

Most evenings of playing AH are a blur by the time I log in the next day to play again... but that night I will always remember.  It was by far in the top 3 of the best times I have had playing this game.  We tried that same type of attack a few other times, but it never worked again like it did that night.  It was a one in a million fight.

Admittedly, that type of take does not require a lot of skill.  Just the patience to make the long run, and the luck not to have a flacker or two up when the base started to flash.  Now unfortunately... that SAME type of mission... 3 or more 110's and a goon being used in the manner in which we used them (and there are other combinations too) , have become a standard for many groups when attacking bases, and is NOT done to "stir it up" or "create a fight".  It is done simply to take the base with as little resistance as possible.  And that is the main reason (In my opinion) for the change in the dar settings.

[lulu]

Completely agree on the skill aspects.

But also a lack of surveillance is a bad thing. What can You do?

In past time, 2 years ago, i covered alone too 4 or 5 sector, burned
acks, come back at home took a c47 and the vbase. Why? Rooks were
to busy to do what they more like: furballing! Or they were to 'tired' or 'high aces'
to defend. I guessed on it and I took the base.

If

bishs=athenynses

rooks=spartans

then

who hell are nights???   


 

[SEraider]

but better planing and organization

       

Need you say more??

In reality, whenever HTC modified the level of base capture, tactics evolved.  I remember when town had no ack (just 2 soft batteries) and M16 runs and 110 raids where the thing to do.  Then ack was added on base and town to slow things down.  Then when the 3 fighter hangers were lined up on the small field and HTC seperated them just like on the medium field and Vehicle base.  So, I guess let the dust settle and see what happens.

I just think if a mission is coming in with ord at 12k with the dar as big as it is, it gives some guys on the opposing base time to up a 109 at 15k and pick the mission coming in.  I just see it as a score-potatos dream really. 

65 NOE we can live with but dar size back to original IMO.