Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?

[NCLawman]

I was in a collision with a F4U while flying in a Spit8.  He dove down on me, and his wing chopped my wing off at the root, and his wing was taken off at about mid wing.  I had to bail, and he flew off.  In this scenario, I thought that was was a fair outcome: both planes suffered even though the other guy clearly ran into me.

My issue with collisions is not with the technical aspects of how they work, it's the fairness of the outcome. Is it fair if only one plane detects the collision, it is damaged and the other plane gets a pass?  Conversely, is it fair for your plane to be damaged for no apparent reason from your viewpoint, although it actually collided with another from that planes perspective?  Is there any reasonable way to solve this inequity, or does everybody think that the way it works now needs no improvement?

Please help me understand HOW there is an inequity?

You have to understand that you are playing the game on your computer with your AH software.  I am playing it on my computer with my AH software.  In truth we are not actually playing each other.  You are playing against another cartoon plane and I am playing against another cartoon plane each on our respective computers.  What is, in fact, happening is that the data my computer sends to the server influences where objects on your computer are.  Conversely, your data influences where my computer puts the cartoon plane against which I am playing.  If you crash into that plane (on your end) damage is inflicted.  At the same time, I may not have collided at all, so I continue flying as if nothing happened.... why????  because on my computer NOTHING happened.  I am still playing my game and you are still playing yours.  We were never actually in combat with each other.  We merely influence what the AI planes in the other person's computer is doing.  THAT is why each person receives the damage that their own computer is interpreting.  The game you are playing is NOT the same as the game I am playing (spatially speaking).

[Lusche]

but really if its a game who cre's that when you coolide you both blow up. Because its a game we can start again not like in real life

So you would not care if your P-47 would blow up from this collision? (It's the actual moment the collision happens)

[LLv34_Snefens]

Actually before I flew AH, I flew another WW2-sim online called European Air War, 8 player max. The net-coding was horrible with massive lag, but still it used the alternative to the collision system of AH. You could fly towards an enemy, dive well under him and still lose a wing from a collision. Fair? well, both took damage and since it was what I was used to I actully advocated for this solution back in the time I first started AH. (Knowing fully the dilemma caused by the lag).

To be honest I don't think it would change much which of the two solutions you use. Most would adapt if AH went the EAW way (not gonna happen), and there would just be regular threads on the BBS about "How come I died in a collision that didn't happen?" instead of the "How come my opponent didn't die in the collsion that killed me?"-kind

[LLv34_Snefens]

Double post

[NCLawman]

Back to Maus original point....   Fault is a civil concern related to who pays for damage in a collision.  It is irrelevant (even in Real Life) as to how much damage or to whom it is inflicted.  AH is not the insurance company they don't care about fault.  A real life example of this .... a pedestrian at a crosswalk sees a car coming down the street.  The pedestrian knows he has the right of way and steps into the road knowing the car is required to stop.  The car driver is texting his new GF and fails to stop for the crosswalk pedestrian.  The car impacts the pedestrian leaving only his shoes marking the point of collision.  The pedestrian is NOT at fault in this collision.  But the question is.... is the pedestrian any less dead?  

In AH the damage inflicted to you (or even if a collision occurred) depends on what your computer 'saw' relative to your AH software programming.  The damage inflicted to me is relative to what my computer 'saw' relative to my AH software programming.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Fault or intent plays no part in the damage.

[NCLawman]

Server issues... double post.  Sorry

[BulletVI]

Please help me understand HOW there is an inequity?

You have to understand that you are playing the game on your computer with your AH software.  I am playing it on my computer with my AH software.  In truth we are not actually playing each other.  You are playing against another cartoon plane and I am playing against another cartoon plane each on our respective computers.  What is, in fact, happening is that the data my computer sends to the server influences where objects on your computer are.  Conversely, your data influences where my computer puts the cartoon plane against which I am playing.  If you crash into that plane (on your end) damage is inflicted.  At the same time, I may not have collided at all, so I continue flying as if nothing happened.... why????  because on my computer NOTHING happened.  I am still playing my game and you are still playing yours.  We were never actually in combat with each other.  We merely influence what the AI planes in the other person's computer is doing.  THAT is why each person receives the damage that their own computer is interpreting.  The game you are playing is NOT the same as the game I am playing (spatially speaking).

Take the clipboard map have you ever wondered why you see a red dot at the edge of the square and you blink and it is now almost in the centre of the square. The dot never moves in small leaps it's allways big leaps that's due to time difference as it takes alonger time for us in Europe to receive the data from the Server than it does from when playing in the US.

I believe now that is what and why some people are saying about the collisions. I may be wrong and i may be right

[Lusche]

I just wonder why they rarely answer that simple question...  

[Ghosth]

Sigh

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm

Collisions - While you may not be able to prevent someone from flying through you and causing a collision on your front-end, remember that he may not have seen a collision on his front-end and, as far as he is concerned, a collision did not occur. While it may be frustrating to watch the other guy fly away while you tumble to the ground with damage from a collision, it beats the alternative of you tumbling to the ground when you know for a fact that you were not part of a collision.

No one has ever submitted film where someone intentionally ran into another plane and were able to fly off without taking damage, while the other guy dies.

So until that day happens there is no "ram" and if you want to call someone a "ace pilot" you'd best look in the mirror.

Also remember only you can cause, or prevent a collision.

[BnZs]

Question: When Lusche explains how collisions work for the billionth time, shouldn't he get a free car or something?

So you would not care if your P-47 would blow up from this collision? (It's the actual moment the collision happens)

(Image removed from quote.)

[maus92]

Please help me understand HOW there is an inequity?

I suppose that it comes down to reasonable people can reasonably disagree.  The inequity is technical, logical and emotional.  We can all agree that the state of the internet can cause each player to have a slightly different view of the situation, a technical inequity.  If you collide with another plane, you would expect that the other plane would be damaged, at least to some extent (and maybe it was) - this is the logical inequity.   But may times the game records damage/death to only one party when it is obvious from the dead person's point of view that the other aircraft should have suffered some consequence.  That is the emotional aspect of the inequity.  

[BulletVI]

I suppose that it comes down to reasonable people can reasonably disagree.  The inequity is technical, logical and emotional.  We can all agree that the state of the internet can cause each player to have a slightly different view of the situation, a technical inequity.  If you collide with another plane, you would expect that the other plane would be damaged, at least to some extent (and maybe it was) - this is the logical inequity.   But may times the game records damage/death to only one party when it is obvious from the dead person's point of view that the other aircraft should have suffered some consequence.  That is the emotional aspect of the inequity.  

Hence this topic can turn into an emotional roller coaster ride like it has done ( but was it a fun roller coaster ride  )

[LLv34_Snefens]

Take the clipboard map have you ever wondered why you see a red dot at the edge of the square and you blink and it is now almost in the centre of the square. The dot never moves in small leaps it's allways big leaps that's due to time difference as it takes alonger time for us in Europe to receive the data from the Server than it does from when playing in the US.

That has absolutely nothing to do with lag. It's a matter of refresh rate of the dot-radar. This is set to a few seconds in MA, while in some scenario-events you sometime see it at several minutes. Also two planes sitting 10 yards from each other would not give out two dots on the map, no matter how long you waited or zoomed in the map, simply because of the resolution they are updated with.

I believe now that is what and why some people are saying about the collisions. I may be wrong and i may be right

You are only wrong.

[BulletVI]

That has absolutely nothing to do with lag. It's a matter of refresh rate of the dot-radar. This is set to a few seconds in MA, while in some scenario-events you sometime see it at several minutes. Also two planes sitting 10 yards from each other would not give out two dots on the map, no matter how long you waited or zoomed in the map, simply because of the resolution they are updated with.

You are only wrong.

Ok cool i only heard that when i first started the game a bit back

[NCLawman]

Take the clipboard map have you ever wondered why you see a red dot at the edge of the square and you blink and it is now almost in the centre of the square. The dot never moves in small leaps it's allways big leaps that's due to time difference as it takes alonger time for us in Europe to receive the data from the Server than it does from when playing in the US.

I believe now that is what and why some people are saying about the collisions. I may be wrong and i may be right

I could very well be mistaken on the following point, but if I am correct in my understanding, the speed at which the data travels is near the speed of light (186K mph).  Given the distance between Texas and Europe (or anywhere in the world) the overall time difference is so small as to be a non-factor.  The lag effect relates more the the communicating computers ability to process the information received (i.e how much data it can handle and calculate at once) once it arrives at its destination as well as the ability (i.e. how much data) it can send out to the receiving computer/server.

On this point, I would ask that you NOT take as cast-in-stone.  I could be incorrect in my thinking.  There may be others who can refute or corroborate the logic.  But it is something to think about.